Bioethanol from waste gases facility plan in Europe announced

Bioethanol from waste gases facility plan in Europe announced

Three companies announced they have entered into a letter of intent to build Europe's first commercial-scale production facility to create bioethanol from waste gases produced during the steelmaking process. The announcement said the bioethanol can cut greenhouse gas emissions by over 80 per cent compared with conventional fossil fuels.

This is a 47,000-ton ethanol/annum project, said the news release; it can fuel half a million cars with ethanol blended gasoline.

ArcelorMittal, the steel and mining company, is joining LanzaTech, a carbon recycling company founded in New Zealand, and Primetals Technologies, a service provider to the iron and steel industry. (Primetals Technologies will be responsible for part of the engineering, automation, key equipment and commissioning.)

LanzaTech's technology is to play a key role here. Its technology recycles waste gases and ferments them with a proprietary microbe to produce . The company described its process as involving patented microbes that convert carbon rich wastes and residues produced by various industries as well as gases into valuable fuel and chemical products through a process of gas fermentation.

Earlier this year, LanzaTech, according to site notes from the Symposium on Biotechnology for Fuels and Chemicals, spoke about its process involving a proprietary strain of Clostridium autoethanogenum.

"Every ton of bioethanol produced, displaces 5.2 barrels of gasoline as well as reducing ArcelorMittal's CO2 emissions by 2.3 tons," said the news release.

Steel is produced through a chemical process that results in high levels of waste gases emitted. The release noted that approximately 50 per cent of the carbon used in the chemistry of steelmaking leaves the process as carbon monoxide. The waste gas stream is flared or used to heat and power the steel mill. "In either case, the is combusted and the resulting CO2 is emitted."

The initiative can deliver environmental benefits when compared to conventional fossil fuels. One benefit is that the initiative will help keep in the ground, through the production of commodity chemicals and fuels that would otherwise be made from oil.

The construction site is ArcelorMittal's steel plant in Ghent, Belgium, and will get under way this year. The production of ethanol will happen by mid-2017.

The total initial capacity is 16,000 tons. In 2018, with completion of a "phase two," capacity will be at 47,000 tons of ethanol per annum. What is more, "If scaled up to its full potential in Europe," the release said, "the technology could enable the production of around 500,000 tons of bioethanol a year."

ArcelorMittal is the world's leading steel and mining company, according to its company site, with a presence in 60 countries and an industrial footprint in 19 countries.

Jennifer Holmgren, CEO of LanzaTech, said the in Europe comes at a time "when it is abundantly clear that we need all solutions and the commitment of large corporations, cities and countries around the world, to help us stay within our 2 degree carbon budget and keep fossil reserves in the ground."


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Jul 13, 2015
"Every ton of bioethanol produced, displaces 5.2 barrels of gasoline


Why use two different measures - tons and barrels?

A ton of ethanol is about 11 barrels.

Maybe that's why.

Jul 13, 2015
They say it is a fermentation process. I wonder what other inputs it requires like sunlight or heat? Also, how much water needs to be removed from the end product?

Jul 13, 2015
Another source of fuels. I like it.

Jul 14, 2015
Another source of fuels. I like it.


You do?

Might I remind you that the carbon emissions of steelmaking come from the coal that is used in the chemical reaction to reduce iron from its ores. In other words, it's a fossil-derived fuel.

So much for the death to dirty fuels you're always going on about.

The waste gas stream is flared or used to heat and power the steel mill.


In many cases, the steel mills already sell electricity to the grid with the power they make out of the waste gas. Turning it into ethanol is probably going to be less efficient than simply burning it for power, so there's going to be more CO2 per unit energy emitted - not less.


Jul 14, 2015
The whole thing seems like greenwashing of coal power.

The sole energy input of the whole process is coked coal, which is coal that is dry-distilled to get rid of volatiles such as bitumen and coal tar - which is a process that is run by... burning coal.

Then the coke is burned to produce steel and CO2 and CO gas byproducts, which are somehow fed to a bioreactor that ferments them into ethanol, which is then distilled using heat that is most likely from the same waste gas stream.

So it's basically turning coal into ethanol, but since there's a bioreactor in between you can call it a biofuel, which fools the politicians and the public to think that it's not a fossil fuel or a huge waste of energy.

The reason behind the scheme appears to be government mandates to have a certain amount of ethanol in road fuels, which is creating a lucrative market for ethanol regardless of source. This is another example of why environmental policies often backfire.

Jul 14, 2015
The problem is basically this:

Ordinary steelmaking with waste gas power generation goes like:

Coal > coke > CO2 + CO > heat > power

And the new biofuel scheme goes like:

Coal > coke > CO2 + CO > fermentation > distillation > ethanol > heat > power

The question is, which process chain gives you more net power (energy) out for some given input of coal?
Hint: the > sign signifies energy loss in the process.

It's trivial to see that the proposal does not save any greenhouse gas emissions - it vastly increases them!

Jul 14, 2015
"Might I remind you that the carbon emissions of steelmaking come from the coal that is used in the chemical reaction to reduce iron from its ores. In other words, it's a fossil-derived fuel."
-----------------------------------

Yes,and we are converting its waste to fuels. It is waste which will still be created, but now we are using it intelligently.

Jul 14, 2015
How does an organism ferment Co2 and turn it into a hydrocarbon? I can understand fermenting a sugar and energy from the sun allowing plants to create the sugar. The fermentation process must split water and Co2 in order to create the alcohol. I don't see how just heat and an organism can accomplish this.

Jul 14, 2015
Yes,and we are converting its waste to fuels. It is waste which will still be created, but now we are using it intelligently.


Why did you ignore the part where I pointed out that it's already being used for energy directly?

Simply expanding that practice to all facilities would make much more sense.

How does an organism ferment Co2 and turn it into a hydrocarbon?


Presumably they're growing some sort of biomass with it, converting the biomass into sugars and then fermenting the sugars, and then distilling the ethanol out by burning the CO part.

Jul 14, 2015
How does an organism ferment Co2 and turn it into a hydrocarbon?


On further investigation, there seems to be a gas-fermenting microbe:

http://www.arpae-..._131.pdf

The LanzaTech microbe is a naturally-occurring organism in the family of acetogens, or gasfermenting
organisms. They represent one of the earliest life forms and utilize only gases for their
entire life cycle.(...) The microbes grow and increase their biomass
by consuming CO/CO2/H2.



Jul 14, 2015
Thanks for the link Eikka. It looks like the process still needs external H2 added.

Jul 14, 2015
"Might I remind you that the carbon emissions of steelmaking come from the coal that is used in the chemical reaction to reduce iron from its ores. In other words, it's a fossil-derived fuel."

-Funny that the guy with the MSG in Environmental Machinations which makes him an expert on the subject, would not know this.

Hmmmmm...

Jul 14, 2015
This comment has been removed by a moderator.

Jul 15, 2015
"Might I remind you that the carbon emissions of steelmaking come from the coal that is used in the chemical reaction to reduce iron from its ores. In other words, it's a fossil-derived fuel."
-------------------------------------

I guess otto the sniper did not bother to read where this was already answered, by telling him it exists anyway because of the steelmaking, and instead of having it as pollution, we recover the energy.

When little boys get angry, they lose track of what we say.

Jul 15, 2015
"Might I remind you that the carbon emissions of steelmaking come from the coal that is used in the chemical reaction to reduce iron from its ores. In other words, it's a fossil-derived fuel."
-------------------------------------

"I guess otto the sniper did not bother to read where this was already answered, by telling him it exists anyway because of the steelmaking, and instead of having it as pollution, we recover the energy.

"When little boys get angry, they lose track of what we say."

-No, little boys compound their lies with more lies.

After you were caught you looked it up and pretended as if you knew it all along.

You back to diapers yet george?

Jul 16, 2015
Unable to carry on a real conversation requiring thought, otto just snipes at others, as he bragged about doing, using his "otto" pseudonyms to play his "games" with the rest of us, who are here to discuss and learn from others.

I embarrassed him and he went nuts, and still follows me around with his silly stuff. He is easily manipulated.

Jul 17, 2015
"Might I remind you that the carbon emissions of steelmaking come from the coal that is used in the chemical reaction to reduce iron from its ores. In other words, it's a fossil-derived fuel."

-Funny that the guy with the MSG in Environmental Machinations which makes him an expert on the subject, would not know this.

Hmmmmm...


He simply can't not know this.

There's a huge demand for ethanol because by EU law you have to mix increasing proportions of it into road fuels, so the price of ethanol is up, so they make more profit selling ethanol than selling electricity, even though making the ethanol is energetically more expensive and causes more pollution.

It's simple economics - which politicians and pundits usually fail to consider when they draft their environmental policies.

Jul 17, 2015
Thanks for the link Eikka. It looks like the process still needs external H2 added.


The bacterium can split water into H2 using the energy in CO, so you can technically feed it just carbon monoxide.

I guess otto the sniper did not bother to read where this was already answered, by telling him it exists anyway because of the steelmaking, and instead of having it as pollution, we recover the energy.


You're -still- ignoring the point that the waste gasses are already being recovered for energy, and despite the recovery it's still pollution because the energy comes from coal.

The CO2 doesn't go anywhere. Once you burn the ethanol, there it is again.

Jul 18, 2015
"with the rest of us, who are here to discuss and learn from others."

You're certainly not.

Jul 19, 2015
There is a need for steel.
To make steel we need coke.
To make coke we need coal.
But collectively in those processes, after extracting a portion of the energy, some waste products containing carbon are discharged into the atmosphere.
The article describes a way to recover some of those waste products, by feeding CO2 to a bioreactor that can take an input of energy from some other source (maybe light from the sun) to recharge the energy into the carbon dioxide to form ethanol. Thus carbon dioxide that would have gone into the atmosphere is diverted for another go round before being discharged from a vehicle exhaust.
Of course there are some loones who reject the entire idea that keeping CO2 out of the atmosphere is a fools errand. More the fool them.

Jul 19, 2015
"The CO2 doesn't go anywhere. Once you burn the ethanol, there it is again. "
-------------------------------------

But we got to use the ethanol, didn't we, and from fuel already used once? Doesn't that displace the new fuel we would have to dig up and use?

Jul 19, 2015
This comment has been removed by a moderator.

Jul 20, 2015
"He simply can't not know this"

"...psychopaths are good imposters. They have absolutely no hesitation about forging and brazenly using impressive credentials to adopt professional roles that bring prestige and power. They pick professions in which the requisite skills are easy to fake, the jargon is easy to learn, and the credentials are unlikely to be thoroughly checked.

"Manipulation is the key to the psychopath's conquests. Initially, the psychopath will feign false emotions to create empathy, and many of them study the tricks that can be employed by the empathy technique. Psychopaths are often able to incite pity from people...

"A woman with a staggering record of fraud, deceit, lies, and broken promises concluded a letter to the parole board with, "One is only as good as her reputation and name. My word is as good as gold."

-Facts are irrelevant.

Jul 20, 2015
"From an interview with serial killer Elmer Wayne Henley:

Interviewer: "You make it out that you're the victim of a serial killer, but if you look at the record you're a serial killer."
Henley: "I'm not."
I: "You're not a serial killer?"
H: "I'm not a serial killer."
I: You're saying you're not a serial killer now, but you've serially killed."
H: "Well, yeah, that's semantics."

And so on. The point that the researchers noted was that psychopaths seem to have trouble monitoring their own speech."

"Psychopaths are notorious for not answering the questions asked them. They will answer something else, or in such a way that the direct question is never addressed. They also phrase things so that some parts of their narratives are difficult to understand. This is not careless speech, of which everyone is guilty at times, but an ongoing indication of the underlying condition in which the organization of mental activity suggests something is wrong."

Jul 20, 2015
What are you trying to tell us, otto?

Are you confessing, in response to my repeated questions of who you are?

Go ahead, tell us, . . you'll feel better.

Jul 21, 2015
"Go ahead tell us,..youll feel better"

-Why? I wouldn't want people here to think I was a psychopath.

"...psychopaths are good imposters. They have absolutely no hesitation about forging and brazenly using impressive credentials to adopt professional roles..."

-Like most everybody else here I wouldn't want to presume that fellow posters would take my word for anything, whether I posted it under my real name or not.

That's why I post links and excerpts.

In contrast, you want people to believe that there was an H2-initiated nuclear airburst at fukushima solely on the strength of your name and your (phony) CV.

This is exactly how PSYCHOPATHS think.

The fact that you can't realize this profound disconnect of yours, even after being presented with incontrovertible evidence of it from many people here, indicates that you truly are insane.

Jul 21, 2015
And there is no 'us' for you here george. The people who uprate you know by now just how delusional you are, and do so out of pity.

You have nothing of value to offer. You are nothing but a source of contention and disruption, which is what all those employers concluded when they shit-canned you one after the other.

Can you hear me over that tinnitus or do I have to speak LOUDER george?

Jul 21, 2015
Does anybody else here notice the adolescent fixation of otto?

It can't be a sign of good mental health.

Jul 22, 2015
"Does anybody else here notice the adolescent fixation of otto? It can't be a sign of good mental health"

-Im not the one who has been imbibing VA drugs, purportedly for 50 years, to treat his alleged PTSD or whatever else is allegedly ailing him.

Poor george boo hoo thinks pity will enable him to post more lies and self-aggrandizement.

After all this site exists for you doesnt it?

The WORLD exists for you, DOESNT IT?

Jul 22, 2015
Hilarious.

Now we have you so emotionally-manipulated, all you can do is try to damage the character of others, . . . only to reveal your own.

Jul 22, 2015
"Now we have you so emotionally-manipulated, all you can do is try to damage the character of others, . . . only to reveal your own."

Poor baby.

"Manipulation is the key to the psychopath's conquests. Initially, the psychopath will feign false emotions to create empathy, and many of them study the tricks that can be employed by the empathy technique. Psychopaths are often able to incite pity from people because they seem like "lost souls" as Guggenbuhl-Craig writes. So the pity factor is one reason why victims often fall for these "poor" people."

-You damage your own character by lying and fabricating facts, and you think that doing these things under your real name makes them somehow acceptable?

But then you really have no choice in the matter, do you?

Poor baby.

Jul 22, 2015
You are the one with the perverse fascination with me. You DO dream of me at night, don't you?

Does it get you excited? Leave you with a mess?

Jul 22, 2015
"You are the one with the perverse fascination with me. You DO dream of me at night, don't you?

"Does it get you excited? Leave you with a mess?"

-"... with a mess?... self 69?... clit?"

-And all that objection to ottos vulgarity?

Your true nature is showing under pressure george kamburoff.

Jul 22, 2015
"Your true nature is showing under pressure george kamburoff."
----------------------------

Really? Or is it YOUR fascination with ME?

I can stick with the topic, otto, but you have some kind of emotional problem.

Jul 22, 2015
"Really? Or is it YOUR fascination with ME? I can stick with the topic, otto"

-Well sure when the topic is george kamburoff.

For you it always is.

"They can also be Narcissists since Narcissism seems to be merely a "facet" of the psychopath or a "milder" manifestation. You could say that the Narcissist is a "garden variety psychopath" who, because of his or her "social programming," has less likelihood of running afoul of the law. In this way, they are very efficient "survival machines," living out their lives doing untold damage to their families, friends and business associates."

Jul 22, 2015
I love it: This anonymous sniper otto can't get me out of his little mind, and it is my fault.

Nope, I am not responsible for your perverse fascinations.

Now, let's get away from your emotional needs, and back on topic.

Thanks.

Jul 22, 2015
"Now, let's get away from your emotional needs"

-So stop posting stuff like this which, given your track record, is most likely a lie.

"It will be tiresome to you folk, but I really do have a daughter with seizures. They almost killed her, and she has already had an 8 1/2-hour brain surgery"

-And also your tinnitus, 50yo PTSD, etc etc.

"Psychopaths are often able to incite pity from people because they seem like "lost souls" as Guggenbuhl-Craig writes. So the pity factor is one reason why victims often fall for these "poor" people."

-poor baby.

Jul 22, 2015
It is YOUR fixation, otto. I caught you being a jerk, proved you wrong, and hurt your little feelings. Now you want to "punish" me.

What a baby.

Having been in Primary Metals as Plant Engineer, I have something to bring here. Do you, . . besides your hangups?

Jul 22, 2015
"It is YOUR fixation, otto. I caught you being a jerk, proved you wrong, and hurt your little feelings. Now you want to "punish" me."

-Where did you do that?

"Having been in Primary Metals as Plant Engineer, I have something to bring here. Do you, . . besides your hangups?"

-What does being a job shop button pusher and a dial reader in a factory for 6 months have to do with

"Bioethanol from waste gases facility plan in Europe announced"

-???

Jul 23, 2015
Let me quote Thomas Quinn, who summed you up perfectly.

"Otto. You're a completely fake, bitter demi-troll who has nothing to offer except abuse, non sequitur personal attacks and pathetically inadequate amateur attempts at psychological analysis, yet you seem to labour under the delusion that you are an insightful, intelligent contributor to meaningful discussion, a superman picking out the untermenschen. Your flirtations with fascism are as obvious as they are incoherent, and your standard list of pseudo-intellectual psychology is as tired as it is desperate.

Not that this is going to get through to you, but it is very funny to see that you exhibit most of the traits you ascribe to sociopaths, psychopaths and, especially, narcicists. Irony impaired, Otto?"

Jul 23, 2015
Let me quote antialias

"Youre obviously not an engineer."

Let me quote eikka

"You obviously dont have even the fundamental training necessary to be an engineer."

Per tq: "you are an insightful, intelligent contributor to meaningful discussion, a superman picking out the untermenschen..."

-Naw, only liars, cheaters, bullshit artists, and obvious psychopaths.

"...traits you ascribe to sociopaths, psychopaths and, especially, narcicists. Irony impaired, Otto?"

-So what exactly is it youre being treated for down at the VA psycho ward for the last few decades?

And why do you labor under the delusion that the doctors down there would be monitoring my 'every post'? Do they think Im a threat to national security, or only the emotional security of poor delusional george kamburoff?

Were you ever an inpatient?

Jul 26, 2015
When you attack the integrity of others because of personal pique, you only reveal the character of yourself.

Jul 26, 2015
"And why do you labor under the delusion that the doctors down there would be monitoring my 'every post'?"
-----------------------------------------

Paranoid much?

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