Fossil fuels blown away by wind in cost terms: study

There is a bright future for wind and solar power as they are rapidly becoming cheaper than fossil fuel electricity plants, acco
There is a bright future for wind and solar power as they are rapidly becoming cheaper than fossil fuel electricity plants, according to a new study.

New onshore wind and solar energy projects are set to deliver electricity more cheaply than fossil fuels plants, with other green technologies also rapidly gaining a cost advantage over dirty fuels, a report published Saturday said.

According to a new cost analysis from the International Renewable Energy Agency (IRENA), within two years "all the renewable power generation technologies that are now in commercial use are expected to fall within the fossil fuel-fired cost range, with most at the lower end or undercutting fossil fuels".

It expects renewables will cost between three and 10 US cents per kilowatt hour (kWh) by 2020, while the current cost spectrum for fossil fuel power generation ranges from five to 17 US cents per kWh.

"This new dynamic signals a significant shift in the energy paradigm," said IRENA's Director-General, Adnan Amin, in a statement.

"Turning to renewables for new is not simply an environmentally conscious decision, it is now—overwhelmingly—a smart economic one," he added.

Continued technological advancements are not the only factor helping drive down prices. The report found that the market was becoming more competitive and a number of experienced project developers had emerged in the sector.

The best onshore wind and solar PV projects are expected to deliver electricity for three US cents or less by next year.

But onshore wind and solar are not the only sectors becoming more competitive rapidly. The study found that new bioenergy and geothermal projects commissioned in 2017 had global weighted average of around seven US cents per kWh.

IRENA said auction results suggest that two other technologies —concentrating solar (CSP) and offshore wind—will provide electricity for between 6-10 US cents per kWh by 2020.

"These cost declines across technologies are unprecedented and representative of the degree to which is disrupting the global energy system," said Amin.

The report was released on the first day of the eighth assembly of IRENA, which aims to be a global hub for renewable cooperation and information exchange by its 154 member countries.


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Renewables posted record growth rate in 2015: IRENA

© 2018 AFP

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Jan 13, 2018
So how exactly did they solve the problem of people requiring power 24/7? Until that is solved the true cost of renewables will always remain hidden since each KWH of renewables will still require 1 KWH of nat gas backup power that must be paid for whether we use it or not.

Jan 13, 2018
You can have 3 days with out wind, but if everything is imported from China there shouldn't be a problem?
How many 3 MW turbines to replace all fossil fuel (Coal and NG) about
"ONE" million.
And replaced recycled every 20 years.?

The mining manufacturing and eventual recycling of "ONE" million turbines is not looked at, because the "dream world" would collapse.
All wind turbine are running at about 35% utilisation, so does that mean we need
"three" million turbines for the USA? to replace all Coal NG and Nuclear?

https://www.thegu...ollution
Rare-earth mining in China comes at a heavy cost for local villages
The pollution generated from Rear Earth mining and manufacturing is horrendous.

Wind Turbine Permanent magnet @ 3 megawatts needs 2 tonnes of Rear Earths

Jan 13, 2018
The terrible truth is now apparent to even oil junkies.

I love to see Deniers try to wiggle out of reality.

Jan 13, 2018
Whatever, I'll believe it when I see it. The greens have lied far too often to be believed about anything.

Jan 13, 2018
MR "since each KWH of renewables will still require 1 KWH of nat gas backup power that must be paid for whether we use it or not"

Repeating a lie - does not make it true. Look - lots of places are already on 100% renewables - https://en.wikipe...ctricity

Yes MR - we know that intermittency is an issue with renewables - and we are working on it. It is a process - and it will take time. God you are a broken record.

Jan 13, 2018
During recent cold snap, the U.S. withdrew a record amount of natural gas from storage.
https://www.eia.g...id=34512

I don't see record wind and solar numbers during this mini ice age the US has just experienced

Jan 13, 2018
"The greens have lied far too often to be believed about anything."

WMD!

Jan 13, 2018
Well gosh,, I guess it is time to end this:
https://www.utili.../514287/

"Xcel solicitation returns 'incredible' renewable energy, storage bids
Dive Brief:

An Xcel Energy resource solicitation received more than 400 individual proposals, the utility reported last month, including what may be record-low prices for renewable energy paired with energy storage.
The median price bid for wind-plus-storage projects in Xcel's all-source solicitation was $21/MWh, GTM Research's Shayle Kann noted on Twitter, and the median bid for solar-plus storage was $36/MWh. Previously, the lowest known bid for similar solar resources was $45/MWh in Arizona."

That is equal to 2.1 CENTS/kWh!!

Jan 13, 2018
Renewable energy production is replacing fossil fuels faster than could ever have been expected. A wonderful development!

Jan 13, 2018
"Repeating a lie - does not make it true. Look - lots of places are already on 100% renewables"


Greenonions: then stop repeating lies yourself. The places on your list are either relying on hydroelectric power, with very little wind and solar, or leaning heavily on imports and grid connections to larger market areas, making them "100% renewable" only on paper.

You've made this lie of omission several times - you're playing a semantic technicality of what counts as "renewables".

Jan 13, 2018
Eikka,that 2.1 cents/kWh was not the lowest, but the median bid for that 24-hour power.

Polluters lose.

Meanwhile, the poor customers are going to PAY for the lost billions from the Summer Nuclear Plant now abandoned in mid-construction.

Jan 13, 2018
eikka "The places on your list are either relying on hydroelectric power" So what? The point is we are transitioning to renewable energy. Hydro can be seen as a renewable. There is no lie or omission in understanding that we are in the early days of the transition. MR's lie is that renewables need a one to one backup with gas. I proved that wrong. Sorry you can't follow logic.

Jan 13, 2018
I hope this isn't BS and they have excluded the subsidies, capital costs, transfer costs, risk mitigation costs, and big screens to protect endangered birds and bats from being slaughtered. Corn ethanol, which a long time ago was mature, is nothing but an entrenched farm subsidy. Cuomo's 2050 plan will have colony of Upstate NY reduced to a solar panel and windmill plantation.

Ask the poor inland people of California how this is working out so far.

Jan 13, 2018
Can the "greens, Democrats" do basic maths?
There are no batteries that can power Los Angeles for 12 hours at a price lower than Natural Gas?
Where are the numbers?

Jan 13, 2018
Yes - advocates of renewable energy can do math. "A report in Minnesota suggested that right now, the net cost of a solar power plus storage power plant is cheaper than a natural gas peaker power plant" From - https://electrek....ral-gas/

What dinosaurs don't understand is that we are still in very early days in terms of the shift to renewables. The cost of wind/solar/storage is going to continue down. There is no reason to believe that is true for other fuels.

Hold on to your adds - and maybe do some reading and get a better education.

Jan 13, 2018
Gkam would you please post the link that quotes the $21/MWH for 24/7 solar and or wind with battery backup. When that happens I will gladly do the happy dance with you and onions. Please no BS $21 after massive subsidies.

Jan 13, 2018
A battery that will power Los Angeles 12 hours, @ about 3000 MW per hour.

Tesla Powerwall 2 AC has double the capacity of the original Powerwall – 13.2 kWh of usable energy storage capacity. It also has a much greater power output capability of 7kW peak and 5kW continuous.
2 Hours of Power@ 7kW peak / 5kW continuous
Powerwall 2 starts from $12,749 in Australia
About 600,000 Tesla Batteries needed for 2 hour? @ 7 billion for 2 hour?
One battery is 2 hours at 5KWH? at about $12,000 AUD.
So if you need 4 hours at 5KWH that's about 14 billion for 600,000 houses
So if you need 8 hours at 5kwh that's about 28 billion for 600,000 houses...

Jan 13, 2018
https://www.eia.g...id=34512
During recent cold snap, the U.S. withdrew a record amount of natural gas from storage
And the use of Solar and Wind turbines during the record snow and cold???

Jan 13, 2018
Apparently logic is hard for greenies. Once again, if you rely exclusively on wind turbines and solar for electricity you don't get any when it's dark and the wind doesn't blow. End of story. Doesn't matter how cheap it is. When you add in the cost of other "base load" power (available 24/7) or the cost of storage (batteries) to compensate, wind and solar are far more expensive than fossil fuels. We all want clean electricity, but more importantly we want electricity when we need it, and we want it to be cheap enough that people can reasonably afford it. There is no way solar and wind accomplish this until the storage issue is solved. Until then they are fine for supplemental power.

Jan 13, 2018
MR - gcam already posted the link "Wind energy with battery storage was bid at $21/MW" from - https://www.utili.../514287/

The actual numbers are not as important as the point being made - that renewables are falling in price - and being that they are a technology rather than a fuel - they will continue to fall. So if we are currently at the point where renewables can compete head to head with fossil fuels - we know that in the future they will be cheaper. So what is the point of your stupid happy dance? Our point is that we have been advocating for renewables for decades - understanding this cost issue. Are you aware that South Carolina residents are now paying $9 billion in money wasted on a failed nuclear project? Where is the outrage from the deniers on that shit?

Jan 13, 2018
aksdad " wind and solar are far more expensive than fossil fuels" Not currently true. gkam already provided a link to demonstrate that. You guys keep thinking that if you tell a lie over and over - it becomes the truth.

The bigger point is that this is a process. We are in the early days of the transition. The technologies are just beginning to scale up. The costs are coming down. Tesla's giga factory is still ramping up - https://www.reute...BN1D00S7 and their entire production is going to be for Tesla.

Again - there are countries around the world running on 100% renewables - so your lies are exactly that - just lies.

Jan 13, 2018
https://www.platt...27762428
Japan plans to build 45 new coal power plants in next decade: EIA

Shaken by the Fukushima nuclear accident, Japan has launched plans to open 49 new coal-fired power plants in the next decade to replace nuclear, 22,000 megawatts (MW) are in the pipeline
https://www.equal...8Fq6Wapp

Clean coal crown. Unit 2 at J-POWER's Isogo Thermal Power Station, a 600-MW ultrasupercritical unit in Yokohama, Japan, ranks as the cleanest coal-fired power plant in the world in terms of emission intensity, with levels comparable to those from a natural gas–fired combined cycle plant.
47% efficiant .Wow. From brown coal..

Jan 13, 2018
"Apparently logic is hard for greenies. Once again, if you rely exclusively on wind turbines and solar for electricity you don't get any when it's dark and the wind doesn't blow. End of story"

Apparently reality is difficult for Deniers and those without a decent education in science. Did they not notice the price of 2.1 CENTS/kWh was for 24 hour power?

Jan 13, 2018
That is a pretty good coal plant referenced above. I am impressed. What is the cost of the power from this plant?

Can it equal 2.1 cents/kWh?

Jan 13, 2018
Japan has been warned about the folly of their planned coal build out. The tax payers there will regret the decision if it is followed through. It will probably be nixed - along with all the Chinese plants in the works - that will just not be cost competitive.

https://www.ft.co...20d5575e


Jan 13, 2018
My bad, I am now reading the link. The first thing that stands out it is the combustion turbine bid of $4.80/KW/mo. That works out to be $.006/KWH which is absurdly low, I THINK. Even hydro from 1930s dams cost more than that.

The battery storage bid is .0157/KWH. If the companies that made that bid can earn a real unsubsidised profit then renewables have come of age and I will gladly do the happy dance.

Jan 13, 2018
http://link.brigh...42460001

Wind Turbine Permanent magnet @ 3 megawatts needs 2 tonnes of Rear Earths

Jan 13, 2018
Putting more money in the wind and solar is economic movement far out on the curve of diminishing returns. Go nuclear, put the money in nuclear for the paradigm shift. Rare-earth barium copper oxide (rebco) tape has provided magnetic field strength adequate to contain 100,000,000 degree plasma. Further they are not the massive toroidal structures. Maybe 4 years ago Lockheed and Boeing both announced they were have portable fusion power generators in the not to distance future. I thought they were bonkers. This disruptive technology, assuming feasibility, will lower the cost of electric power to such a level that electric vehicles will push out combustion engines. Greater output than input has not been achieved however this is a massive jump of prior efforts.

Jan 13, 2018
MR ' I will gladly do the happy dance" Why do you think anyone cares about your happy dance? You have been pissing on science and specifically renewables for decades. Now all the predictions of the smarter people are coming to fruition. The cost of wind, solar, storage etc. have fallen and fallen. - http://rameznaam....-prices/

They will continue to fall. If the Japanese or the Chinese are stupid enough to build new coal plants - 50 years from now they will be paying 10 cents a Kwh price - in a 1 cents a Kwh world (just a projections - it will probably be less than that). Their economies will crater. Facts matter MR - not your opinion, or your happy dance.

Jan 13, 2018
I knew that .006/kwh was way off. It costs about 3 to 4 cents/kwh to generate fossil electricity. Thus, 1.57 cents for storage of renewables is not too bad.

By the time the KWH gets to me here in CT it costs 20 cents. CT has a lot of progressive programs leaching on the electric service. No wonder industry is moving out as fast as it can


Jan 13, 2018
It will take "ONE" million wind turbines to replace all fossil fuels in USA.
Running at 100% capacity, with a life cycle of about 20 to 25 years.
Oh and the batteries to power Los Angels as an example for 8 hours?

Chinese firms to build 700 coal plants: JUL 3, 2017,
http://www.strait...l-plants
It's ok to export coal and all the American industries to Asia.

Democrats don't look at Asia's increasing wealth and CO2 increase.

Jan 13, 2018
No one writes about a floating wind turbine wirelessly connected to satellite or whatever for power transfers. They should keep floating forever. Why? Because they may come across storms one day or other and also it costs a lot to attach to the bottom of the ocean. Another improvement should be adding a series of blades over its stem. What is the use? Once some money is made, a taller one can be made. The sky should be the limit...The height should keep going up and up..What is needed will be to make sure that they never touch the water surface, no matter how severe the storm will be and whatever the wave forces will be around it ! And there is always talk of losing birds. Write a contract with a Restaurant !

Jan 13, 2018
The next big question is how much Li exists on earth and will it remain cheap enough to use when the auto companies and the electric companies need batteries.

Jan 13, 2018
Here's hoping that we have enough to tide us over until a battery that utilizes a more plentiful element is developed.

Jan 13, 2018
MR166 There is plenty of lithium i.e. mica & lithium salts. The problem is separating it.

Jan 13, 2018
Great, now we can end subsidies for renewable energy and tax it just like the other energy generation alternatives.
I'll be interested in whether the authors invest their own money in building renewable energy supplies. I didn't see this mentioned, I think for obvious reasons.

Jan 13, 2018
The first electric car is still working today.
Edison Cell battery, why do you really need Lithium?

Jan 13, 2018
forfreeminds "Great, now we can end subsidies for renewable energy and tax it just like the other energy generation alternatives" We pay taxes on electricity - what are you talking about. South Carolina electricity customers are now paying for a $9 billion nuclear boondoggle - just one of many tax payer funded boondoggles - http://www.thesta...486.html Funny how there is not outrage over gubermint supporting the nuclear industry. You free marketers are so transparent in your hypocrisy.

Jan 14, 2018
Aaaah Monkey Antisciencegorilla and his Riot of socks desperately trying to grasp at straws, ever so making him look like the banana monkey he and his sockpuppets are. been a while since i've seen you use your TurDgent sock good one lol... what happened to your waterprophet sockpuppet ? Did you lose the password ?

Jan 14, 2018
HeloMenelo, Could you be any more sad and pathetic?

Did you lose the password? No just busy working real science and math.

KBK
Jan 14, 2018
Die, fascist warmongering parasitical psychopathic oil controlling cocksuckers.

Just fucking die.

The world will be far far better without you.

The sooner you die off the better for humanity.

Jan 14, 2018
Wow, . . . I am against the further combustion of fossil fuels, but not the killing of anybody.

We do not have to do so: No other technology can now compete with PV and Wind with storage now available.

KBK
Jan 14, 2018
It may be that you don't quite understand the level of horror and destruction that has been committed to this world through the channel of fossil fuels.

Localized energy production is seemingly the only viable way past this impasse of global manipulation based in nearly 200 years death and destruction in order to control said resource of fossil fuels.

It is so far advanced now that it is like a wholly infecting slick science that underlies all political and war related motions. Resource, resource, resource. Chief of all: fossil fuels.

Jan 14, 2018
"Localized energy production is seemingly the only viable way past this impasse of global manipulation based in nearly 200 years death and destruction in order to control said resource of fossil fuels. "

Our PV system powers our household and two electric vehicles. We have signed the contract for battery storage.

But I do not want to kill anybody. We still have Gitmo.

Jan 14, 2018
Turdgent

Nope, I'm sprightly as ever ;)

On the other hand i see you've been losing the battle for what 2 decades now ?

Not complaining keeps you in the bonobo class and the scientists, well you very much guessed it in the Science class of things,

You provide lots of entertainment to everyone here with your chest thumping style lyrics, btw, flashing bananas everytime is not proof to all your thumbsucked and dumbfounded claims.

Now... keep digging for that waterprophet sockpuppet password. We'd like to poke some fun at your old time sockpuppet too you know... ;)

Jan 14, 2018
mmmm... wait a sec, did you actually say something positive about renewables... must be mistaken yes ?

We'll if so i'm blown away, keep it up and your status might just be put to better light, will keep an eye on your posts, not holding my breath given your extensive denial history though.

Jan 14, 2018
Helomental See the yellow jaundice in your eyes has gotten worse, you can't read, critically think, or distinguish between informed and rational skepticism and your religion.

Do you have any idea of the necessary economics required to make things happen?

Unbelievably sad, stupid, and pathetic clown are you. Criticize that which you do not understand. You are something up which I shall not put.

You are Captain Stupid under a new facade?

Jan 14, 2018
@aksdad.

Some points to bear in mind:

- A 'mix' of renewables AND some fossil energy systems has always been the realistic optimum situation; no-one sensible has ever advocated total elimination of fossil energy/backups where necessary due to specific local conditions.

- For large scale backup storage of wind/solar power 'excess', it may be more feasible/economical to use FLOW BATTERIES based on proven and cheaper lead-acid etc battery technology where space/size for battery installation is not an issue as it is for mobile/space-constrained applications/situations.

- The de-stabilizing effects of AGW temperature swings, and consequent unseasonal/extreme events frequency/extents, are being felt NOW globally; most recently involving 'excursions' of cold air from arctic/antarctic regions meeting warmer/moisture laden air thanks to AGW-increased evaporation; creating havoc for transportation, agriculture, health/disease etc etc etc costs/infrastructure.

Be aware. :)

Jan 14, 2018
Adelaide joins race to become world's first carbon neutral city
https://www.thegu...ral-city

Jan 14, 2018
ps @aksdad:

Regarding financial issues/comparisons etc, please also bear in mind some further points which you may have missed previously:

-Taxes on 'profits' of fossil industry do not fully compensate for social/economic/environmental etc damage/costs from mining, refining, distribution, storage and burning (and spills and WARS also); and many large corporations pay little tax anyway after manipulation, tax haven etc 'arrangements'; not to mention the social subsidies/breaks fossil industries/companies got at startup, and still.

- Renewables solar and wind have minimal long term damage/costs etc associated with them compared to coal/oil/gas/nuclear, so renewable systems/industry should NOT be subject to taxing any of their profits made during this critical transitional stage (such a policy will accelerate renewables investment/takeup, complete with battery/fossil backup, in win-win for humanity and the planet as a whole.

Please consider beyond 'simplistic'. :)


Jan 14, 2018
How stable was the Jurassic period when CO2 was 3000 ppm?

Jan 14, 2018
Helomental,

Birdbrain fusion is not a renewable. It is pure E=mc^2. There is no conversion of He back to 4H.

Jan 14, 2018


https://www.thegu...ollution
Rare-earth mining in China comes at a heavy cost for local villages
The pollution generated from Rear Earth mining and manufacturing is horrendous.

The Chinese RE mining is filthy and should be boycotted by the greenies as there are plenty of minable deposits around the world, including the US.

Jan 14, 2018
oh look ! more coal , not wind
http://www.huffin...4b1a2d89

Jan 15, 2018
Aaah seems like giving Turdgent the benefit of the doubt brought the bonobo out from the inside of him..guess there's no seperating the two...i knew it, o well... guess we'll be poking lots more fun at you and your goony sockpuppets in the days to come and share your stupidity once again for the world to see... i'll have your bananas ready..

Jan 15, 2018
Snoosebaum can post links about one coal mine - being opened in one country. Mean time global coal production is down yet again https://www.bloom...r-energy

The ship is slowly turning.....

Jan 15, 2018
"...Once again, if you rely exclusively on wind turbines and solar for electricity you don't get any when it's dark and the wind doesn't blow. End of story. ..."

aksdad
Are you so ignorant that you have never heard of something called a "battery"?
And before you try and counter that with "batteries use rare-earth elements"; they don't all do and when Magnesium-sulfur batteries, which have energy density similar to lithium batteries but will contain only cheap common recyclable materials, are finally developed and replace all lithium batteries, no one will be able to hide behind that argument that was always pretty weak anyway.

There is also the alternative option of a supergrid that could solve that problem even without off-the-grid storage or at least greatly reduce the amount of off-the-grid storage required and therefore its cost.

Jan 15, 2018
" ...fusion is not a renewable. It is pure E=mc^2. There is no conversion of He back to 4H."

Turgent
I can think of one good reason why we shouldn't be investing in fusion but your above reason is not a good reason.
There is enough deuterium fuel to give us all the power we need for thousands of years; That could buy us plenty of time to, in the mean time to, slowly develop true renewables thus it might be used as a temporary but good way to stop polluting with CO2 in the shorter term.

But I estimate it will take SO long to develop cost-effective fusion that, by the time we do, renewables would have become so cheap that there would be no point in fusion. Thus far better to divert funding from any fusion project/development to, instead, be used as extra funding for renewable so we can have more cost effective renewables developed even sooner.

Jan 15, 2018
" ...fusion is not a renewable. It is pure E=mc^2. There is no conversion of He back to 4H."

If you want to argue that route then there is no renewable energy source at all (i.e. this is a nitpicky and pointless argument). Wind and solar are - when you get right down to it - fusion powered because the primary source is the sun.

However, for all intents and purposes the source material for fusion is infinite.

"But I estimate it will take SO long to develop cost-effective fusion that, by the time we do, renewables would have become so cheap"

..wind doesn't work in space. Neither does solar very well if you go further away from the sun (or want to drive something really power hungry like a space station with a substantial population or a spacecraft with a decent propulsion system). Fusion also makes sense on Earth in places where renewables don't work well (bottom of the ocean, antarctica, ... )

Jan 15, 2018
Humy,

"I can think of one good reason why we shouldn't be investing in fusion but your above reason is not a good reason." You are 100% correct. "Putting more money in the wind and solar is economic movement far out on the curve of diminishing returns." is a false statement plain and simply.

Wind and solar may very well be on the curve of increasing marginal utility or simply flat. I've seen so much hype on wind and solar its hard to separate the truth. In NY the governor is promoting wind and solar, he plans to run for president in 2020. When his plan is serioiusly analyzed it is smoke and mirrors. In inland California when it gets to hot the poor hispanic population goes to Wal-Mart for the air conditioning. Electricity is too expensive for poor people to run air conditioners.

Agreed wind, solar, and biological energy are technically not renewable, but rather energy converters.


Jan 15, 2018
One thing I wonder about. When I was a teenager I lived in MN. On cold 30 below winter nights we would bring the car battery inside so to preserve its cranking power. Do lithium batteries have the same suspictably to cold susceptibility to cold? Unless an electric vehicle could be garaged or have some heating device it might not work? The angle of the panels looks to be about 45 degrees. Under the proper temp and snow conditions solar panels can ice over and then hold the snow cover thus being useless in Jan, March, and Feb.

In Upstate NY the state will fully subsidize household solar panels and guarantee to buy you electricity. However, that creates cost problems for the natural gas fired plans ability to service peak load. In my area you can actually can tape geo-thermal. Our new local school taped geo-thermal and in the process the hit a gas pocket in Marcellus shale and it blew up and destroyed the drilling rig.

Jan 15, 2018
Turgent the short answer is yes.

https://electrek....feature/

Jan 15, 2018
"One thing I wonder about. When I was a teenager I lived in MN. On cold 30 below winter nights we would bring the car battery inside so to preserve its cranking power. Do lithium batteries have the same suspictably to cold susceptibility to cold?"

Batteries in EVs lose range in the cold (since you have to run heaters for the cabin and the battery off of them during driving), but you don't have to worry about such a car not starting for the exact same reason: they have battery heaters. Unlike fossil fuel cars the 'juice' can also not freeze to a slush - which is an issue some diesel cars have when it gets really cold.

The ideal way to run them in arctic conditions is to keep your car plugged in at your wallbox at home and preheat with juice from the socket - and only start your trip once the battery is warmed up.

Jan 15, 2018
Corn ethanol and palm oil is green insanity. Convert photons via photosynthesis (11% effeciency) to hydrocarbons to kinectic enery has to be accompanied by a tremendous energy loss. Seems like solar panels would be better. Makes you wonder if shale oil (which is substantially more energy effiecent than convential oil) would be the less of evils relative to palm, corn, or sugar cane ethanol. Ethanol and oil being hydrocarbons and the resultant CO2. Go figure. The conversion of forest in Bornea is pushing orangutans to extinction.

Under the heading of conspiracy theory. Space-X is reported to have lose a satellite recently in a failed launch attempt. However, neithr had a splashdown reentree point. Around the beltway the rumor is that it is the test of a new kind of engine. Getting away from chemical and ionic RTG plutonium devices would be a game changer. The Black world lives on.

Jan 15, 2018
MR166 Thanks

Heaters - that is cool. Well that mitigates the problem some, so long as apartment dwellers and workplaces have electric access which would seem to be a side effect should electric vehicles become pervasive. There is substantial heater capability already in place in MN and and Fairbanks, AK.

Jan 15, 2018
Helomental,

Being small (4ft 2in) did they call you stinky when you were a kid?

Jan 15, 2018
If the greenies were serious about bio-fuels then they would invade Cuba. Make it into one big sugarcane plantation. Sugarcane is 8 times more efficient and avoids the worldwide artificial inflation of grain prices around the world. This causes the poor to farm marginal lands and creates other environment degradation. When you fly over Colorado, western Nebraska, and Kansas and notice the huge green circles. That is irrigated corn drawn from the ancient Ogallala aquifer. It is non-renewable. What is more precious, fresh water or CO2 producing corn ethanol? The aquifer drops feet per year.

The XL and Dakota protester green loons worried about an oil spill yet have no reservation about subsidized corn ethanol destroying the most precious of resources. Go Figure. These are Putin's useful idiots.

Jan 15, 2018
Turgent writes - "Do lithium batteries have the same suspictably" Well - if you followed the issue of EV's at all - you would understand that this is one of the major issues that the whole world has been wrestling with. Heat is as big an issue (perhaps bigger) for EV's than cold. Nissan does not use an active thermal management system - and their EV's have problems as a result. They have changed their chemistry - and time will tell if that will solve the problem - or if they will eventually have to got to an active system like Tesla etc. A quick primer - https://transport...an-leaf/

However - here is another piece of text from Turgent "If the greenies were serious about bio-fuels" Obviously a political poke designed to promote Turgent's superior opinion regarding all things energy. But surely a prerequisite for being so arrogant - should be knowing what you are talking about. cont

Jan 15, 2018
cont - but one simple example of how Turgent does not know what he/she is talking about - is commenting on the subject of energy and transportation - without even knowing the first thing about lithium batteries - and the whole issue of temperature management. But hey - Conservatives are always willing to take childish swipes at their favorite imaginary enemies (greenies, or betd wetting liberals, or Democrats etc.) - despite not knowing their subject matter. Facts just don't matter. Welcome to upside down world.

Jan 15, 2018

Both of our cars are now electric. I am delighted. No oil changes, filters or leaks. No transmission to worry about. No complicated set of expensively-machined metal going back and forth, making noise and pollutants.

No tune-ups no emissions systems to go bad. We "fill up" at home and get our power from a PV system.

The immediate future has been here for a few years now in some places.

Jan 15, 2018
Wow greenie onion. Obviously there is a poke. Still carrying a grudge because I exposed you as such a idiot? I guess Have you at all tried to understand the indeterminacy of complex systems or non-linear systems? Like a useful idiot of the extreme Left you take to vilifying, demeaning, minimizing those who don't conform to your religion. Grow up an knock off the vindictiveness and grow some balls.

I ask questions because I wish to learn and need not hide what I don't know.

It is absolutely terrifying that you are or were a teacher. I guess you must feel inferiority to all you speak to. You are showing your low self esteem.

Jan 15, 2018
Turgent "I ask questions because I wish to learn and need not hide what I don't know" Well - asking questions is of course fine - but don't you think that there is some responsibility to be educated on a subject - before throwing around the politically charged insults like calling people "greenies," "green loons" etc? I advocate for science, technology, and progress - and offer some push back when people seem to me to be trying to hijack progress by being negative, and spiteful to those of us wanting to see a better (read more educated, sophisticated, curios, etc) world. Let me show you an interesting contradiction on your work. "Grow up an knock off the vindictiveness"
and "Like a useful idiot of the extreme Left" That strikes me as pretty vindictive. Especially as my intent is just to suggest that you educate yourself before hurling the insults like "greenies," "green loons" etc.

Jan 15, 2018
Mr. Onion,

Then let's attempt to be civil with comments regarding each other. Let's not have to thin of skins. In many issues I see rabid politicization. As in war once politicized all truth is lost. Maybe this is wrong, however, being that Putin has moved to all out information war I strongly suspect he exploits any non thinkers.
Both the XL and Dakota pipelines change the global energy map to his strategic and economic detriment.

The term "useful idiots" is taken from one of (long deceased)Tom Clancy's last books which is the account of Putin's hybrid warfare in the Ukraine.

Cheers

Both the XL and Dakota pipelines change the global energy map to his strategic and economic detriment.

Jan 15, 2018
Those pipelines are to the detriment of everybody but the corporate interests who own them.

Jan 15, 2018
While they may be considered detrimental. I would argue, we are not going to stop the oil therefore the lesser of evils must be the choice. Pipeline is better than railroad tanker.

Bakken or all shale oil is preferable to non-fracked oil. Non-fracked oil is typically made up of longer hydrocarbon chains and carbon rings like benzene. Plus they have other impurities. To distill or crack regular oil takes a lot of hydrocarbon energy so a gallon of gas has a larger carbon footprint that just the gasoline. In shale oil nature has done most of the cracking, plus there is usually substantial amounts of methane, ethane, propane, butane, etc. These are pushing out dirty oil as the feed stocks for plastics, fertilizers, and a bunch of other stuff. Instead of using dirty oil for corn ethanol fertilizer this seems to be a lesser evil as we aren't going to stop the flow.

Jan 15, 2018
Turgent - I am good with trying for civility - I have a lot of work to do in terms of taming my inner snark. What is problematic for me - and I spend a lot of time pushing back on - is what I call belligerent ignorance. Folks like unreal1 are currently exhibiting this. Dropping links on the page - with no real point to be made - and hyper politicizing science. I engage for a while - get snarky - and then back down to just posting responses - but not really engaging.

Cheers.

Jan 16, 2018
Lol Just as predicted.
Turdgent boasting about his mobkey business again (showing he has very little understanding about science)And absolutely no intellect to even try to reply to Greenonions questions (as always) just continuing to post more dribble time and time again... btw i was the one calling clowns like you names when i was younger, a person of 4ft would dwarf compared to my stature, including you, bonobo's grow to what... 3 feet tall ? ;)


Jan 16, 2018
Helomental

So much gets lost in the translation.

Sehen Sie sich in späte stadien der syphilis induzierten demenz und mehr in der lage, beim masturbieren ständig heulen haben Sie schielt zu werfen Ihr durchfall durch die gitterstäbe.

Jan 16, 2018
"Those pipelines are to the detriment of everybody but the corporate interests who own them."

Gkam I know that you are really more informed than the above statement would indicate. If we had no pipelines we would have no liquid fossil fuels available since I don't think that you consider railroads a safe way to transport these products. If you were king would you stop the use all fossil fuels in say 10 years?

Jan 16, 2018
If I were king, .. no. Let the conditions determine the actions.

Jan 19, 2018
"Helomental

So much gets lost in the translation.

Sehen Sie sich in späte stadien der syphilis induzierten demenz und mehr in der lage, beim masturbieren ständig heulen haben Sie schielt zu werfen Ihr durchfall durch die gitterstäbe. "


Aaah i see you finally getting a grasp of your disorder ? It's a start, but you have much more to do before getting cured.. Here, have another free banana... ;)

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