Explaining the plummeting cost of solar power

solar power
Credit: CC0 Public Domain

The dramatic drop in the cost of solar photovoltaic (PV) modules, which has fallen by 99 percent over the last four decades, is often touted as a major success story for renewable energy technology. But one question has never been fully addressed: What exactly accounts for that stunning drop?

A new analysis by MIT researchers has pinpointed what caused the savings, including the policies and technology changes that mattered most. For example, they found that to help grow markets played a critical role in reducing this technology's . At the device level, the dominant factor was an increase in "conversion efficiency," or the amount of power generated from a given amount of sunlight.

The insights can help to inform future policies and evaluate whether similar improvements can be achieved in other technologies. The findings are being reported today in the journal Energy Policy, in a paper by MIT Associate Professor Jessika Trancik, postdoc Goksin Kavlak, and research scientist James McNerney.

The team looked at the technology-level ("low-level") factors that have affected cost by changing the modules and manufacturing process. Solar cell technology has improved greatly; for example, the cells have become much more efficient at converting sunlight to electricity. Factors like this, Trancik explains, fall in a category of low-level mechanisms that deal with the physical products themselves.

The team also estimated the cost impacts of "high-level" mechanisms, including learning by doing, research and development, and economies of scale. Examples include the way improved production processes have cut the number of defective cells produced and thus improved yields, and the fact that much larger factories have led to significant economies of scale.

The study, which covered the years 1980 to 2012 (during which module costs fell by 97 percent), found that there were six low-level factors that accounted for more than 10 percent each of the overall drop in costs, and four of those factors accounted for at least 15 percent each. The results point to "the importance of having many different 'knobs' to turn, to achieve a steady decline in cost," Trancik says. The more different opportunities there are to reduce costs, the less likely it is that they will be exhausted quickly.

The relative importance of the factors has changed over time, the study shows. In earlier years, research and development was the dominant cost-reducing high-level mechanism, through improvements to the devices themselves and to manufacturing methods. For about the last decade, however, the largest single high-level factor in the continuing cost decline has been economies of scale, as solar-cell and module manufacturing plants have become ever larger.

"This raises the question of which factors can help continue the cost decline," Trancik says. "What are the limits to the size of the plants?"

In terms of government , Trancik says, policies that stimulated market growth accounted for about 60 percent of the overall cost decline, so "that played an important part in reducing costs." Policies stimulating market growth included measures such as renewable portfolio standards, feed-in tariffs, and a variety of subsidies. Government-funded R&D accounted for the other 40 percent—although public R&D played a larger part in the earlier years, she says.

This is important information, she adds, because "for a long time there has been a debate about whether these policies work—were they really driving technological improvement? Now, we can not only answer that question, we can say by how much."

This finding, which is based on modeling device-level mechanisms rather than purely correlational analysis, provides strong evidence of a "virtuous cycle" that can be created between technology innovation and policies to reduce emissions, Trancik says. As emissions policies are implemented, low-carbon technology markets grow, technologies improve, and the costs of future emissions reductions can decline. "This analysis helps us understand why this happens, and how strong the feedbacks can be."

Trancik and her co-workers plan to apply similar methodology to analyzing other technologies, such as nuclear power, as well as the other parts of solar installations—the so-called balance of systems, including the mounting structures and power controllers needed for the solar modules—which were not included in this study. "The method we developed can be used as a tool to assess costs of different technologies, both retrospectively and prospectively," Kavlak says.

"This opens up a different way of modeling technological change, from the device level all the way up to policy measures, and everything in between," Trancik says. "We're opening up the black box of technological innovation."

"Going forward, we can improve our intuition about what factors in general make technologies improve quickly. The application of this tool to solar PV is just the beginning of what we can do," McNerney says.

While the study focused on past performance, the factors it identified suggest that "it does look like there are opportunities for further cost improvements with this technology." The findings also suggest that researchers should continue working on alternative technologies to crystalline silicon, which is the dominant form of solar photovoltaic today, but many other varieties are being actively explored with potentially higher efficiencies or lower materials costs.

The study also highlights the importance of continuing the progress in improving the efficiency of the manufacturing systems, whose role in driving down costs has been important. "There are likely more gains to be had in this direction," Trancik says.


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Nov 20, 2018
Great article. The bottom line is - that with renewable technologies - the cost of power becomes predictable, declining, and home grown. This is huge. Currently - we remain economically dependent on the countries that have the oil/gas/coal, and the cost of power is controlled by factors outside our control. Couple this with the reality that burning fossil fuels is causing huge environmental damage. Also - at best - killing millions of people through particulate pollution, and at worst - wiping us out. But let's hate on renewables - cuz - oh I don't know really - they represent socialism, and tree huggers....

Nov 20, 2018
Solar dryer is free,
but even so people prefer electric dryer because it works even at night or on cloudy/snowy/windless days.
https://pbs.twimg...sYR5.jpg

"Solar/wind are only "cheap" if you ignore subsidies + required natgas plants (and their CO2) + upgrade to grid"

Nov 20, 2018
"but even so people prefer electric dryer" And of course - you can't run an electric dryer off solar panels can you?
"Solar/wind are only "cheap" if you ignore subsidies" Two points here. 1. All electricity generation gets subsidies. http://https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2017/10/6/16428458/us-energy-coal-oil-subsidies
2. Even without subsidies - renewables are cheap - "Taking out subsidies, solar and wind power are now cheaper than electricity generated by coal, nuclear power and even natural gas" From - https://blogs.ei....-breaks/

So your arguments show that you are not trying to present an honest discussion - but pushing a political agenda...

Nov 20, 2018
"...solar and wind power are now cheaper..." except "batteries not included" neither coal/gas-fired backup plants nor integration costs.
Intermittent renewables are cheaper but cause the electricity prices to become 5x costlier.
https://pbs.twimg...UYZ6.jpg
https://pbs.twimg...7m2t.jpg
"If Solar And Wind Are So Cheap, Why Are They Making Electricity So Expensive?"
https://www.forbe...pensive/
https://www.forbe...reasons/

Nov 20, 2018
The comments seem more directed toward immediate gratification rather than cost. Do you always carry large amounts of money? Do you sign up for the highest data plan? With a little planning and delayed gratification we don't need to maintain peak power generation at all times. Intelligent cellular grids with distributed generation can accommodate a variety of energy sources while reducing fuel consumption. It seems our only problem is while a utility model can bill for infrastructure, but not yet provide a profitable energy spot market.

Nov 20, 2018
"except "batteries not included"" Except batteries included. "The median bid price for the Colorado bids was $21 per megawatt hour for wind plus storage and $36 per megawatt hour for solar plus storage" From - https://www.alten...p/28786/

See how Willie lies to promote a political agenda?

Nov 20, 2018
Does Willie still pay for power? Our PV system paid off in three years, and now house power and horsepower are free to us.

Nov 22, 2018
Batteries are dirty toxic things for the environment.
Wind/Solar power combined with batteries is an environmental nightmare.
"The spiralling environmental cost of our lithium battery addiction" - Aug 2018
https://www.wired...t-impact
"A water fight in Chile's Atacama raises questions over lithium mining"
https://www.reute...CN1MS1L8

"Wind/Solar+Batteries" cause more ecological impacts than reduce emissions.
"Energy storage ... increases carbon emissions."
https://www.vox.c...missions
"Battery Storage Could Boost Coal Consumption" - Feb 2018
https://www.green...sumption

Nov 22, 2018
Our area lost power yesterday for just over two hours.

Not us, we were making coffee and having a group of friends over. The pair of Tesla PowerWall IIs kept the lights and heat on.

Nov 22, 2018
Batteries are dirty toxic things for the environment
So is coal, gas, oil, and nuclear power. Drying your washing on the line is good. So we have to make choices. Batteries can be recycled. gkams solar panels, hooked to an electric car - is definitely better than the current grid, and a gas car. We are making progress Willie - just not as fast as we would like - but obstructionists like you make it hard.

Nov 22, 2018
Batteries as well solar panels and windmills can be recycled of course by fossil-fueled machines, because wind and solar have low ERoI, worse yet when "batteries included".
"More solar panels mean more waste and there's no easy solution" - Oct 2018
"It's going to be a major problem by 2050"
"Recycling isn't economically viable right now for solar panels"
https://www.theve...ecycling
"Experts say that millions of aging panels could have significant environmental impacts..."
"They also contain toxic metals like lead, chromium, and cadmium, which can be harmful to humans and are likely to leak from electronic waste dumps into drinking water supplies."
http://www.sixtht...ar-boom-

Nov 22, 2018
Batteries as well solar panels and windmills can be recycled of course by fossil-fueled machines
Or by renewables fueled machines - an electron is an electron - shame you are not smart enough to understand such a straight forward reality.

Nov 23, 2018
RE cultists are so delusional, they believe batteries, solar panels and windmills, are being manufactured/transported/installed/maintained/repaired/recycled by sunshine&breeze-powered machines. It's why fossil fuel barons love them.
"It should be obvious that wind turbines are not manufactured in wind-powered factories, nor are solar panels assembled in sun-powered workshops. But proponents of renewable energy sources never talk about the carbon footprints of manufacturing, distributing and installing the equipment needed to use them. And no one, to our knowledge, has figured out how to dispose of solar panels safely once their useful lives end—they can't just be dumped in the local landfill."
http://www.inside...u-think/

Nov 23, 2018
Impressed with my two electric cars, a friend and a daughter have both decided on Teslas. Their PV systems will power them.

Sorry about nukes and Willie.

Nov 23, 2018
they believe batteries, solar panels and windmills, are being manufactured/transported/installed/maintained/repaired/recycled by sunshine&breeze-powered machines.


I don't believe that. Why don't you show us one article where the author makes that assertion. What I do believe is that we are in the early days of an exciting transition. Heavy industry can be run on renewables - as an electron is an electron - and only stupid people don't understand something as basic as that.

https://www.ft.co...d5404543

Nov 24, 2018
"...What I do believe is that we are in the early days of an exciting transition..."
Interesting that wind and solar are available for free since the ancient times: sails, windmills, Archimedes' heat ray, solar cookers(1869); but even so they were replaced by fossil fuels.
Try to run a small place(>10,000 inhabitants) with only solar and wind without any drop of fossil fuels and no external big money support and let's see if it is technically/economically feasible. Notice: there is ~1000GW of installed-capacity of wind/solar globally, but there is no small city/island successfully 100% powered by "wind/solar+storage", El Hierro island is a clear fiasco, other islands have less than 500 inhabitants and/or are supported by external big money with vested interests.

"...Impressed with my two electric cars ... PV systems will power them..." i.e. fossil-fueled grid will power them; solar PV systems are just for decoration, otherwise would be installed directly on the roof of EVs.

Nov 24, 2018
Willie is tiresome, with his Baghdad Bob refusal to see the truth. I do not know why he is here, and do not think anybody would pay for that kind of stuff.

The fact is we really do have a PV system which powers our two cars and the household. It has paid off in less than three years. We also added a pair of PowerWall II home batteries because we live in earthquake country, and our powerlines go through fire areas. We used them twice so far in the last three months.

Willie wants us to mire in the 20th Century, when we did not know any better than to follow the promises of Big Corporate Power. We can make our own now.

Nov 24, 2018
but even so they were replaced by fossil fuels
So you are advocating fossil fuels? But now fossil fuels are being replaced by renewables. Maybe that has something to do with the fact that we did not have the advanced wind turbines or solar panels - when coal was replacing the wind. Shame you don't know the very basic facts.
otherwise would be installed directly on the roof of EVs.
More basic facts you don't understand. It is pretty staggering that you don't know that a solar panel on a car does not generate sufficient electricity, due to the small area of the roof of the car. A much better option is panels on the roof of the house, or car ports with panels. There are cars being developed with solar panels - but it is far more practical to charge the car from ground mounted panels. I suggest you do some reading - but I am pretty certain you are not really interested in learning - https://greentran...car.html

Nov 25, 2018
"...But now fossil fuels are being replaced by renewables..." it's so delusional.
"...when coal was replacing the wind..." if it isn't coal, then it's oil/gas/fracking that keeps lights on when wind isn't blowing or sun isn't shining or during prolonged droughts.

Face the reality:
"Who can explain to me why, after 30 years of mega subsidies, there is not a country in the world that has reached a correct figure (120g or less) of CO2 emissions per kWh thanks to the intensive development of intermittent wind and solar power renewables ? NOT ONE !"
"Who can explain to me why, despite hundreds of billions of euros in subsidies, all the countries that have made great efforts to develop these intermittent #RE, all have very expensive electricity? Or even overpriced? For a very bad result?"
France: under 80g for nearly 40yrs
https://pbs.twimg...KmxE.jpg

Nov 25, 2018
"Can an entire town run on solar?" Of course not in an ecologically/economically viable way.
https://www.youtu...PjX4rBzM - Nov 11, 2018

"Another report reluctantly admits that 'green' energy is a disastrous flop"
https://business....ous-flop
"the more "variable" wind and solar are introduced into any electricity system, the more they make it both more expensive and less reliable."
"Wind turbines stand as monuments to mass delusion and irrationality."

"The hidden cost of the electric car boom – child labour"
https://www.wefor...d-labour
https://twitter.c...32383744
"Whale Deaths And Wind Farms - The Facts That Cannot Be Ignored"
https://pbs.twimg...xR_C.jpg
http://jasonendfi...-ignored

Nov 25, 2018
there is not a country in the world that has reached a correct figure (120g or less) of CO2 emissions per kWh thanks to the intensive development of intermittent wind and solar power renewables ? NOT ONE !"
Not even ONE - DO YOU HERE ME....

Well - you could check out this site - https://www.sunea...ator.php And you will find about 15 or so countries with C02 below 80. Look especially at Switzerland, Sweden, Norway, Costa Rica.

But that is not the point - is it? Yes France made a smart decision many years ago - to push into nukes - and they have benefited greatly from that smart decision. But today is today. Wind and solar are far cheaper than nukes today - so based on COST and EMISSIONS - renewables are the smarter choice TODAY. And yes - an electron is an electron - and heavy industry CAN be run on wind and solar. Luddite liar.

Nov 25, 2018
Willie only has an nasty attitude, while I have an alternative energy system which actually powers my entire household and two electric cars.

The PV system just paid off after almost three years. Now we get free car fuel and electricity.

Nov 26, 2018
RE "snake oil salesmen", in order to fool public, are always citing countries with abundant hydro/geothermal resources as they were powered by wind and solar, e.g. Costa Rica.
"Costa Rica has few people, warm climate, little industry, and is powered mostly by hydro."
Not much wind/solar here:
Costa Rica: 78% hydro, 10% geothermal
Iceland: 70% hydro, 30% geothermal
Norway: 99% hydro
Paraguay: 100% hydro
Tajikistan: 100% hydro
Albania: 90% hydro
https://pbs.twimg...DN9_.jpg

"... Wind and solar are far cheaper..." except "batteries not included" neither coal/gas-fired backup plants nor integration costs.
"100% wind+solar electric power in California will cost $1 trillion for the batteries!"
http://euanmearns...ncluded/

"...renewables are the smarter choice TODAY..." intermittent renewables are smarter choice to keep the expansion of gas/fracking over carbon-free nuclear energy, a crime in the face of Climate Change.

Nov 26, 2018
"...I have an alternative energy system which actually powers my entire household and two electric cars..." disconnect from the fossil-fueled grid and let's see if your magical system powered by sunshine&breeze unicorn energy will stand on its own feet.

Solar and wind are parasites and cannot survive without a host, i.e. a fossil-fueled grid.
Sociopaths are parasites, it's why they identify themselves with the "unreliables".

"100% "renewables" will fuel poverty and homelessness in California" - Sep 2018
http://www.cfact....ifornia/
"California is shattering renewable records. So why are greenhouse emissions creeping up?" - May 2018
https://grist.org...ping-up/
"California's Mega-Drought: Nuclear Power To The Rescue"
https://www.forbe...-rescue/

Nov 26, 2018
Gosh, Willie, since I added a pair of Tesla PowerWall II batteries to the household, we CAN go without the grid connection if we have to do so.

What happens to you when your power goes out?

Nov 26, 2018
Only sociopaths are happy with "solar/wind+batteries" because they believe in their own lies like animals that eat their own vomit/feces.
"Yelp Reviews of Tesla's Residential Solar Business Are Not Pretty" - Sep 2018
https://www.green...t-pretty
"Elon Musk, Tesla, and the Solar Roof Tile Fraud" - Aug 2018
https://mansionen...e-fraud/
"Tesla's Constant Turmoil Can't Hide The Fact That SolarCity Is Dying" - Jun 2018
https://www.forbe...s-dying/
"Tesla Moves To Close A Dozen SolarCity Facilities Across 9 States" - Jun 2018
https://cleantech...-states/

Nov 26, 2018
Sure, Willie, . . .

Meanwhile, my household batteries and the two electric cars are fully charged, . . free now, since the PV system has paid for itself.

Nov 26, 2018
Willie
are always citing countries with abundant hydro/geothermal resources as they were powered by wind and solar
I was pointing out that there are other countries with C02 emissions from the electricity sector at the same level as France. So you are allowed to point to France having low C02 levels - but we cannot point out that there are other countries - who are not using nukes to that degree - who have low emissions.
intermittent renewables are smarter choice to keep the expansion of gas/fracking over carbon-free nuclear energy, a crime in the face of Climate Change
I support the use of nukes - you have been told that dozens of times. However - the REALITY is that nukes cost a shit load more than wind and solar. If you disagree with that - show us some new build numbers - that prove it wrong. I have shown you Hinkley - at 12 cents Kwh. Where is your example? We keep showing you dozens of examples of wind and solar at sub 5 cents Kwh. Where's your numbers?

Nov 27, 2018
An advanced micro solar generator engineered in Germany, going into production... this device offers consumers far greater benefits than are available using PV today... blockchainsolar(dot)com ... PATENT info here: https://patents.g...512B1/en

Nov 27, 2018
"...my household batteries and the two electric cars are fully charged..." disconnect from the fossil-fueled grid and let's see if your magical PV system can recharge your electric cars and power your home appliances(showers, dryers, etc.)

"... We keep showing you dozens of examples of wind and solar at sub 5 cents Kwh..."
...then including batteries:
While the "cost" of W&S without storage (buffering) is about $50/MWh (5¢/kWh), add lithium ion battery storage at 1/3 current costs and the numbers become more like:
• LCOE (Germany) $ 699/MWh (69.9¢/kWh)
• LCOE (California) $1096/MWh (109.6¢/kWh)
http://euanmearns...ncluded/
https://pbs.twimg...-LWO.jpg

Nov 27, 2018
.then including batteries
Yes Willie - including storage. And the costs keep dropping. And we keep asking you for cost comparisons on nukes - but crickets right? Too busy getting all huffed up, and lying like a drunken sailor - but no data to support your lies.

Nov 28, 2018
"...including storage. And the costs keep dropping..."
Let's see (5¢/kWh) but including storage (69.9¢/kWh - 109.6¢/kWh) just compare sunshine&breeze with the worst case(Hinkley: 12¢/kWh batteries unneeded).
"As Renewables Drive Up Energy Prices, Voters In U.S., Asia & Europe Are Opting For Nuclear Power" - Nov 2018
https://www.forbe...r-power/
Less than 4¢/kWh, carbon-free nuclear energy:
"...study shows that the nuclear industry has reduced its total generating costs by 19 percent since their peak in 2012. These reductions in cost are so dramatic that 2017 total generating costs of $33.50 per megawatt-hour (MWh) have gone down to almost what they were nearly 10 years ago in 2008 ($32.75 per MWh)." - Nov 2018
https://www.nei.o...year-low

Nov 28, 2018
Willie you are not supposed to copy your own stuff and paste it in as if it were a new post.

And the recent bids for power are wind plus battery storage at 2.1 cents/kWh, which NO nuke can come close to in cost.

Nov 28, 2018
"...2.1 cents/kWh..."? Where? In the La-La-Land?

Nov 28, 2018
https://www.utili.../514566/

No, Willie, . . . Colorado.

You have to admit defeat, Willkins, . , and we haven't even counted massive costs for waste storage forever.

This is the canary in the nuclear coal mine, Willie, the first sample of Alternative Technologies versus your crude and nasty 20th Century ideas.

Nov 28, 2018
"Renewable plus storage bids in Xcel Colorado solicitation could set low-price benchmark

Preliminary results from the company's all-source RFP have been hailed as "really impressive." But a lack of details makes cost comparisons with current benchmarks challenging.

Peter Maloney
Jan. 16, 2018

The new year could bring a new benchmark for pairing energy storage with wind and solar projects.

In a report on its solicitation process released late in December, Xcel Energy's Colorado utility subsidiary said it received more than 400 proposals, including what may be record-low prices for renewable energy paired with energy storage.

The median bid price for wind-plus-storage was $21/MWh and for solar-plus-storage was $36/MWh, beating the $45/MWh price seen last year in Arizona in a power purchase agreement between Tucson Electric Power (TEP) and NextEra Energy, GTM Research's Shayle Kann noted on Twitter."


Nov 28, 2018
The above quotations were from
https://www.utili.../514566/

Nov 28, 2018
Willie liar
Let's see (5¢/kWh) but including storage (69.9¢/kWh - 109.6¢/kWh)


Nope Willie - that is just not true.

while the median price for solar plus battery storage projects was just $US36/MWh ($A44.30/MW


https://renewecon...l-83151/

Nov 29, 2018
"...Alternative Technologies versus your crude and nasty 20th Century ideas..."
Sunshine&breeze have been always available for free to mankind since the ancient times.
In the Middle Ages, people had windmills and sails, solar/wind dryers, biomass(wood and dung), organic food, clean air, and lived until 40 year old.
Windmills and sails were replaced centuries ago by steam engines, but the RE charlatans are always coming up with their placebo energy solutions to fool the public to steal the taxpayers' money.
July 20th 1891: New York Times: "Solar Energy would drive all the steam engines in the World".
https://uploads.d...97b6.jpg
'Even the first electricity-producing windmills and the first working solar cell are from the 1880's."
https://thoughtsc...ovation/

Nov 29, 2018
"...what may be record-low prices for renewable energy paired with energy storage..."
The best that the RE sociopaths charlatans can do is citing propagandist articles in order to fool the innocent public.
Notice: "Colorado has the sixth largest natural gas reserves, and 11 of the nation's 100 biggest natural gas fields are located in the state."
https://www.eia.g.../?sid=CO
Notice: RE "snake oil salesmen" account natural gas as if it weren't a fossil fuel.
The pattern is clear: intermittent renewables are growing to serve as 'decorative facade'("greenwashing") to keep the expansion of gas/fracking industry over carbon-free nuclear energy.

"...Willie liar..."
"The First Thing A Cult Does Is Tell You Everyone Else Is Lying" - James Randi (magician, skeptic, opponent of pseudoscience).
https://pbs.twimg...0bmJ.jpg

Great question:
"If Solar And Wind Are So Cheap, Why Are They Making Electricity So Expensive?"
Except in states with abundant gas/fracking.


Nov 29, 2018
Colorado has the sixth largest natural gas reserves, and 11 of the nation's 100 biggest natural gas fields are located in the state
Which has nothing to do with the price of solar plus storage - liar Willie.
"If Solar And Wind Are So Cheap, Why Are They Making Electricity So Expensive?


They aren't. Notice you have to add your little caveat "except in states... The whole U.S. has abundant gas/fracking - that has nothing to do with the low cost of wind/solar.
wind and solar were now cheaper than coal in every major economy bar Japan. And in markets like India, they were half the price of coal
You are too busy lying - to know the facts....

https://renewecon...t-31985/

Dec 01, 2018
RenewEconony? Again a propagandist website like CleanTechnica et al. a bunch of organized sociopaths maniac compulsive pathological liars.

"...wind and solar were now cheaper than coal in every major economy bar Japan..."?
Wind: 21.9 ¥/kwh
Solar: 24.3 ¥/kwh
Coal: 12.3 ¥/kwh
Nuclear: 10.1 ¥/kwh
https://pbs.twimg...v3Eg.jpg
https://www.bloom...m-within

Indeed, RE "snake oil salesmen" believe in their own lies like beasts that eat their own vomit/feces.

"Coal is still king in global power production" - Nov 30, 2018
https://phys.org/...ion.html
"Fight climate change = trying to reduce CO2 emissions by blocking nuclear, the premier low CO2 energy source while shoving solar panels / wind turbines down people's throats."

Dec 01, 2018
"Why are the Indonesians doubling their thermal coal consumption for electricity generation from 2018 to 2027? Isn't wind and solar cheapest!"
http://www.mining...-report/

"Bill Gates Thinks Green Energy Zealots Are 'Dangerous'" - Nov 26, 2018
"A lot of people think, OK, renewable energy, wind and solar, has gotten a lot cheaper, isn't that it?" Gates explained. "Well, electricity is only a quarter of the problem. In fact, we've got to solve the entire 100 percent. You know, unless somebody has the pie in their mind that, OK, electricity's 25 percent, agriculture's 24 percent, transport's 14 percent, unless they start with that, we're not really talking about the same problem."
https://dailycall...ngerous/
https://futurism....ge-axios
https://www.axios...21b.html

Dec 01, 2018
Gosh, Willie, tell Bill Gates the cheapest and cleanest power is from wind plus battery storage at 2.1 cents/kWh.

All my own power comes from our PV system for household and two cars.
No amount of pasting from other silly sources can change the facts.

Dec 01, 2018
Willie -
Why are the Indonesians doubling their thermal coal consumption
Because these projects have a long lead time. So the plans are already in the works to build out coal plants. But from Willie's own article -
coal's run in the domestic power generation mix will not go unchallenged. Gas and renewables are likely to slowly displace coal in the long run


Yes Willie - the transition is going much slower than we would like it to. Entrenched interests are keeping the FF industry profits churning. It will take decades for the transition to happen. My bet is that like China - Indonesia will see the light - and not build all of those dirty stinky coal plants. Liars like you don't help - as we struggle to free ourselves of the grip of big oil money. https://www.nytim...ion.html
United States retired more than 13 gigawatts of coal capacity in 2015 as the country shifted toward natural gas, wind and solar

Dec 01, 2018
Willie
Again a propagandist website like CleanTechnica et al
As Willie cites THE DAILY CALLER - on his own comment. Can you get a more obvious example of a dishonest little troll. What a joke you are!

Dec 02, 2018
"...tell Bill Gates the cheapest and cleanest power is from wind plus battery storage at 2.1 cents/kWh..."
"Gates says renewables are rubbish. Probably won't win over the Linux fanciers."
http://www.thereg...into_rd/
"...All my own power comes from our PV system for household and two cars..."
So disconnect from the fossil-fueled grid.

Dec 02, 2018
"...Gas and renewables are likely to slowly displace coal in the long run..."
If it isn't coal, then it's oil/gas/fracking that keeps lights on when wind isn't blowing or sun isn't shining or during prolonged droughts.
It's because intermittent renewables are parasites and cannot survive without a host, in this case natural gas(methane(CH₄): 70x worse than CO₂).

"... It will take decades for the transition to happen..."
In less than 15 years, most of wind/solar farms will be just a bunch of junkyards that costed trillions of dollars and huge ecological impacts with almost nothing to show in terms of reducing emissions, a sad reminder of the "green" insanity.

"We often have climate charlatans claiming China is leading the renewable revolution. Well here is the truth."
"China is a net exporter of solar panels / wind turbines. On the other hand China is the #1 importer of oil and coal and #2 importer of natural gas."
https://pbs.twimg...26QZ.jpg

Dec 02, 2018
If it isn't coal, then it's oil/gas/fracking that keeps lights on when wind isn't blowing or sun isn't shining
Or hydro, or geothermal, or storage. You just don't understand the field Willie.
Well here is the truth
Well part of the truth Willie. You see China produces about 3,500 MT of coal a year (7X the next produceer - the U.S.) - and imports about 270 MT. But maybe having the largest population in the world - about 4X that of the U.S. has something to do with that one - don't you think?
But it is fair to say that China is leading the world in renewable energy adoption - and the future looks very bright for renewables - https://www.vox.c...6-graphs

Where's that cost curve on nukes Willie?

Dec 03, 2018
"...Or hydro, or geothermal, or storage..."
Wind/Solar:
- storage NOT included = 5¢/kWh
- storage included = 69.9¢/kWh ~ 109.6¢/kWh
Bird-choppers/landscape-destroyers are 10x more expensive that carbon-free nuclear power, with almost nothing to show in terms of reducing emissions, grotesque trillionaire fiascos in the fight against Climate Change.
http://euanmearns...ncluded/

"...China is driving global renewable energy growth, in 6 graphs..."
RE "snake oil salesmen" mix up installed-capacity with emissions avoided in order to fool the public.
"China is funding its nuclear power future by selling solar panels to those who don't know better."
"China weakness is foreign oil dependence but will they scale to building two nuclear reactors per week"
https://www.nextb...eek.html


Dec 03, 2018
storage included = 69.9¢/kWh ~ 109.6¢/kWh
Liar -
The median bid price for the Colorado bids was $21 per megawatt hour for wind plus storage and $36 per megawatt hour for solar plus storage

https://www.alten...p/28786/

Keep telling the same lie - it does not become the truth.

Where's that cost curve on nukes - chicken Willie?

Dec 04, 2018
"...$21 per megawatt hour for wind plus storage and $36 per megawatt hour for solar plus storage..."
Let's see "wind/solar+storage" for only 2.1¢/kWh, but even so it's needed massive mass media propaganda, subsidies/tax incentives, constitutional laws/mandates in order to shove it down people's throats.
"If it were true that solar panels were cheaper than coal, droves of persons would be installing solar panels and disconnecting from the grid with no need for any incentive. But of course, it is just not true."
Sunshine&Breeze energy, always a catch.
https://pbs.twimg...D3cp.jpg

"...Liar..."
"The First Thing A Cult Does Is Tell You Everyone Else Is Lying" - James Randi (magician, skeptic, opponent of pseudoscience).
https://pbs.twimg...0bmJ.jpg

Dec 04, 2018
If it were true that solar panels were cheaper than coal, droves of persons would be installing solar panels and disconnecting from the grid
Well Willie - you don't understand the difference between utility scale renewables, and home based solar panels. Pretty simple distinction - but you don't even understand something as basic as that. None the less - there are large numbers of people moving to install solar panels on their roofs, and as the costs continue to plummet - the pace of adoption will of course accelerate. Here is just one example -
Australia now has a total of 1.85 million rooftop solar installations
https://www.energymatters.com.au/renewable-news/australias-rooftop-solar-boom/

Yeah Willie - there are subsidies - cuz renewables are competing against the massive subsidies of nukes, and fossil fuels. Only fair right?

Where's the cost curve we keep demanding - Mr. Chicken????

Dec 05, 2018
People who are installing subsidized rooftop solar, are not disconnecting from the fossil-fueled.
Interesting that wasn't necessary subsidies/tax incentives, massive mass media propaganda, constitutional laws/mandates to force people to use fossil fuels.
"Before petroleum, large cities were lit using whale oil. Coal and oil companies quite literally saved the whales."
"200 years ago or so, almost all the energy humanity used was renewable and we nearly destroyed our forests and pushed whales to extinction. Coal saved the forests and oil the whales."

"...Where's the cost curve we keep demanding..."
when batteries/storage included, wind and solar are orders of magnitudes costlier than carbon-free nuclear power, and the result is clear: they are causing the electricity prices to skyrocket everywhere except in states with abundant supply of cheap gas/fracking to needs to be "greenwashed" by intermittent renewables.

Dec 05, 2018
People who are installing subsidized rooftop solar, are not disconnecting from the fossil-fueled
Some are - some aren't. So what? The lie on the table was this
If it were true that solar panels were cheaper than coal, droves of persons would be installing solar panels and disconnecting from the grid
So the fact is that there are droves of people installing solar panels - as I showed. If they do or don't disconnect from the grid - is irrelevant. Once again you present a straw man. We may always have a grid - and the majority of us may always stay connected - as opposed to getting batteries in our garages. So what? That says nothing about the cost of solar panels. Do people who use nuclear power disconnect from the grid?

Dec 06, 2018
"... If they do or don't disconnect from the grid - is irrelevant..."
Of course it's relevant, if they disconnect from the fossil-fueled grid they will freeze in dark.

"Cheap solar/wind replacing fossil fuels" is a rhetoric of charlatans:
"Bernie Sanders, Climate Hawk, Spends Nearly $300K On Private Jet Travel In Month" - Dec 4, 2018
https://dailycall...-change/
"Do as I say, but not as I do"
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-UihjHv3ESqg/Up-CZn04OEI/AAAAAAAAKkU/pxhSOyMPvYM/s1600/hypocrisy+yoda.jpg

"A recent survey has that 1 in 3 Greens are just as stupid as the other Two!"
https://pbs.twimg...WaYr.jpg
https://www.youtu...H4CRtQGE

Greenies' Energy Revolution:
https://pbs.twimg...Pkou.jpg

Dec 06, 2018
Of course it's relevant, if they disconnect from the fossil-fueled grid they will freeze in dark
Not if they have batteries. But it is irrelevant. Wind and solar are the cheapest form of electricity - which is why they are receiving so much capital investment. Yes Willie - we know they are intermittent - and that has to be dealt with. Staying connected to the grid is not a problem. It allows us to use the cheapest source of power - and to keep the lights on 24/7. Called a win win. The intermitency can be handles with batteries, hydro, geothermal, wave, tidal, nukes - and until we have phased them all out (which we will) fossil fuels. It is called and energy transition for a reason...

Dec 07, 2018
"...Not if they have batteries..."
Unless if heavily subsidized with money from poor taxpayers, batteries are prohibitively expensive aside the manufacturing/disposal/recycling is dirty toxic.

"... Wind and solar are the cheapest form of electricity..." not including batteries, coal/gas-fired backup plants, integration costs.

"...why they are receiving so much capital investment..." to serve as 'decorative facade' to keep the expansion of gas(fracking) over carbon-free nuclear energy.

"... Staying connected to the grid is not a problem..." intermittent renewables have no option except to parasite fossil-fueled grids.

"... It allows us to use the cheapest source of power - and to keep the lights on 24/7..." skyrocketing electricity prices except in states with cheap coal/gas.

"...Called a win win..." a win win for the fossil fuel industry ("greenwashing").

"...It is called and energy transition..." transition from coal to gas, and from carbon-free nuclear to fossil fuels.

Dec 07, 2018
batteries are prohibitively expensive aside the manufacturing/disposal/recycling is dirty toxic
Sounds like nukes to me - and as part of a system - batteries are not prohibitively expensive (unlike nukes). We keep proving our point with facts - but liars don't like facts - they prefer to keep making shit up.https://www.alten...p/28786/

Dec 07, 2018
"... We keep proving our point with facts..."
Which facts, biased/unreliable sources like UCS(Union of Confused Scaremongers), RenewEconomy, CleanTechnica, AltEnergyma, et al.

"...Colorado Could Show the World Renewables Are Cheap..."
Interesting how many times the word "...COULD..." appears in these propagandist articles.

"Why are the Chinese building 259GWe of coal fired power stations if #wind and #solar are so economical?"
https://t.co/ygv1qr2MCm
"I give up, why is China building coal fired power stations when solar and windmills are cheaper?"


Dec 07, 2018
Which facts
Ones like this
The median bid price for the Colorado bids was $21 per megawatt hour for wind plus storage and $36 per megawatt hour for solar plus storage
Thems are called facts Willie - if you can show they are not true - please proceed.
why is China building coal fired power stations when solar and windmills are cheaper?

They are also building shit loads of renewables - go figure.
China is already investing more than $100 billion in domestic renewables every year

https://www.japan...q2WhKiM8

Dec 07, 2018
Really interesting. Daily there are stories about new wind/solar farms going up. Example -
Platte River is looking at the falling cost of wind and solar compared to the cost of keeping its aging coal fleet on life support
- https://cleantech...-pledge/
other example - https://cleantech...nd-farm/

These announcements come in weekly - if not daily. And where are Willie's nukes? Where is the cost curve we keep pushing Willie for? But Willie keeps insisting that nukes are better than wind and solar - except Willie wont talk about cost!!!!!

Dec 09, 2018
CleanTechnica, and other propagandist sites, again and again.
RE "snake oil salesmen" are unable to cite reliable sources showing in fact that intermittent renewables are making electricity cheaper and reducing emissions, even after wind/solar reaching an amazing milestone of a terawatt(1000GW) of installed-capacity globally at cost of trillions of dollars and huge ecological impacts.
Meanwhile, there are countless reliable sources, as well real-time data, showing the contrary.
"Green power capacity is growing but not reliable" - Aug 2018
https://www.reute...8N1VD3B9
"Wind power cannot contribute to the power balance during winter peak hours with the same availability as the nuclear power it replaces," SVK said.
https://uk.reuter...BN1JS1G1

Dec 09, 2018
CleanTechnica, and other propagandist sites, again and again
Breitbart, twitter, Daily Mail and multiple rubbish sites - boy are you stupid.
are unable to cite reliable sources showing in fact that intermittent renewables are making electricity cheaper
Sure we can - except that liar Willie consistently dismisses credible sites like Cleantechnica - that are full of facts - and then liar Willie cites Breitbart, twitter, Daily Mail and multiple other shit sites. What a hypocrite. How about Forbes - backed up by IRENA - https://www.forbe...2ce54ff2

Dec 09, 2018
are unable to cite reliable sources...
Sure we can Willie. You have previously indicated that you will accept GTM as a source (sure beats Breitbart right?). Here is a quote from GTM
Fast-falling costs of new wind and solar plants precipitated this trend. Today, they are already cheaper than operating many fossil generation plants
Also
Substituting "steel," in the form of new wind and solar generation, for "fuel," from uneconomic power plants, can provide substantial operating cost savings
and
they will rapidly adopt a clean energy or low-carbon portfolio, often accelerating coal plant retirements at significant savings to customers
Do you know what the word 'savings' means Willie liar?
From - https://www.green....BMZjZ7U

Dec 10, 2018
"...U.S. coal is truly dying or already dead..."
I heard it times ago about Germany, wind and solar was growing up in installed-capacity, indeed ~100GW(at cost of hundreds of billions of euros and huge ecological impacts) enough to replace hard coal or lignite coal but even so Germans are ever more addicted to coal and Russian gas to keep lights on when wind isn't blowing or sun isn't shining mainly during the Winter when energy is most needed.
"The more the renewables penetration, the more the price - and Germany essentially runs on COAL. Nice work, enviros."
"Nuclear France de-carbonized by 1990; Renewable Germany might de-carbonize by 2050 if they are very very lucky"
"Germany still constructing new coal power stations" - Jun 2018
http://www.aircli...stations
"German CO2 Emissions Higher Now Than In 2009" - Oct 2018
https://notalotof...in-2009/

Dec 10, 2018
I heard it times ago about Germany
When you have nothing else to add - you default back to the old Germany example. But if you look beneath the surface on Germany - you see that this kind of bullshit from Willie is very deceptive
Germany still constructing new coal power stations
If you read the article linked by Willie - you will see they actually only mention ONE power station (Datteln) - that was begun in 2005, and may actually be commissioned in 2020.
Since the first nuclear reactor was shut down in 2003 as a part of Germany's nuclear phaseout, electricity from renewables has increased almost twice as much as nuclear power has shrunk. Coal power – both from lignite and hard coal – has also dropped. The lights have stayed on.
I guess Germany is doing OK. https://energytra...on-2017/

Dec 11, 2018
"...back to the old Germany example..."
RE cultists don't like to talk about wind/solar endless failures at replacing coal/oil/gas: Germany, Denmark, South Australia, California, Minnesota, etc.
Wind and solar are only a success in marketing, fake news mass media, and in providing a 'decorative facade' to keep the expansion of coal/oil/gas/fracking over carbon-free nuclear energy.

"...I guess Germany is doing OK..."
Germany's Energiewende is a complete failure at replacing coal and gas, but the faux-greens think it's Ok because they imposed ~100GW of intermittent energy at cost of huge subsidies, expensive electricity prices, and monstrous environmental impacts for almost nothing in terms of reducing emissions. They are so dishonest and delusional.

"...electricity from renewables has increased..."
It's thanks to coal and/or fracking.
"Ironically and thanks to #fracking, the U.S. might be able to manage relatively high levels of "renewables" better than almost anybody else."

Dec 11, 2018
RE cultists don't like to talk about wind/solar endless failures at replacing coal/oil/gas
Well I like to talk about the success stories - which are many. Your second example is Denmark. Denmark got 43% of it's electricity from the wind last year - and the build out continues.
Denmark is on track to surpassing its EU energy targets" which is to have at least 50% of its energy needs supplied by renewable resources by 2030, against a current one third, and zero fossil fuel energy by 2050
Shame you don't know shit about the subject you profess to be such and expert on. https://www.rte.i...nd-farm/

Dec 12, 2018
"...by 2050..."?
"Danish Wind turbines lasted on average 15 years in this study. High failure rate of gearboxes has been a problem for a long time."
https://pbs.twimg...EoEx.jpg
"Danish CO2 emissions expected to increase, despite government plan" - Jun 2018
https://www.thelo...ent-plan
"Emissions in Germany have not decreased for the last 9 years & emissions from transportation have not fallen since 1990…. Germany inched ahead of Denmark for the highest electricity prices for household customers"
https://www.sandi...ory.html

Just compare wind/solar-powered Denmark with carbon-free nuclear-powered France:
France: 53g CO₂eq/kWh
Denmark: 600g CO₂eq/kWh
https://pbs.twimg...XeL7.jpg

RE cultists/charlatans love to talk about installed-capacity but not about emissions avoided along the year.

Dec 12, 2018
Danish Wind turbines lasted on average 15 years
Yeah Willie - you look at 30 year old turbines - to report on how long turbines will last.
A 2014 study found that the UK's first wind turbines deployed in the 1990s are still largely profitable as their power production is about 75% of their ideal production
And of course - turbines are improving all the time - that is what happens in engineering. So Willie liar - Denmark gets close to 50% of its power from renewables - and is on track to 100% by 2050. So in 2050 - Willie liar will still be claiming it is impossible. Just like King Canute.
http://www.renewa...urbines/

Dec 12, 2018
"...by 2050..."
It's funny how that wind turbines will become a bunch of junkyards in 4 to 5 years if they don't receive maintenance carried out by fossil-fueled machines funded with taxpayers' money, aside tons and tons of lubricant oil to keep the wind blades spinning and butchering birds/bats in midair.
https://pbs.twimg...Zw-u.jpg
https://pbs.twimg...miNz.jpg

"Almost 1,000 UK wind turbines face demolition in next five years" - Mar 2018
https://utilitywe...e-years/
"100% renewables" is an environmental nightmare.
https://pbs.twimg...66nO.jpg
"Wind turbines kill 80,000 bats a year in the UK, and 600,000 in the USA"
http://www.dailym...ght.html

Dec 12, 2018
It's funny how that wind turbines will become a bunch of junkyards in 4 to 5 years if they don't receive maintenance carried out by fossil-fueled machine
So what? Uranium is mined with fossil fueled machines - does that mean nuclear is rubbish? Of course not - only an idiot would try to make such an argument. The whole world is going electric - so in time - all the machinery to service electric infrastructure will be electric. In case you were not aware - fossil fuels are finite.

Oh look - Willie is quoting from the DAILY MAIL. What a hypocrite.

Dec 12, 2018
The development of the so-called EPR nuclear reactors "wouldn't be competitive for the French power system from an economical standpoint...The report assumes that the reactors would produce electricity at a cost of 70 euros per megawatt-hour, while the cost of wind and solar power would fall much lower
And the cost of renewables keeps falling. Where are those cost curves on nukes Willie? We really want to see the cost curves on nukes Willie.

https://www.renew...kes.html

Dec 13, 2018
Uranium is a million times more energy dense than fossil fuels and around four billions times more than a wind molecule, so it causes less environmental impacts per unit of energy produced than anything and indeed curbs emissions a thing that intermittent renewables have failed miserably even after trillions of dollar spent and huge ecological impacts/environmental damages caused.

"...fossil fuels are finite..."
"For every barrel of oil consumed over the past 35 years, two new barrels have been discovered."
https://blogs-ima...misu.jpg
https://www.forbe...e-world/

If fossil fuels were indeed finite, the destruction of natural landscapes and wildlife habitats, massacre of millions of birds and bats by wind/solar(bird-choppers/landscape-destroyers), would cease some day and carbon-free nuclear energy would lift all mankind out of energy poverty and reverse fossil/renewable impacts.

Dec 13, 2018
"...And the cost of renewables keeps falling..." while causing the electricity prices to skyrocket everywhere except in states that have abundant supply of cheap gas/fracking that needs to be "greenwashed" by intermittent renewables, e.g. Oklahoma.

"Before the Industrial Revolution, renewables failed, too weak and unreliable. Then coal+steam gave prosperity + longer life to more - but now we know carbon trashes the environment. So, not back to failed renewables, but forward to nuclear - kind to nature and million X energy"

"Energy Poverty Kills More People Than Coal" - Nov 27, 2018
https://wattsupwi...ombined/
"If you are anti-coal, anti-fracking, anti-nuclear and anti-oil then you are pro-blackouts, pro-poverty and pro-starvation."

"Nuclear is the lowest cost form of constraining carbon emissions."

Dec 13, 2018
while causing the electricity prices to skyrocket
Shut up idiot. Oklahoma gets 1/3 of it's electricity from the wind - and we have some of the lowest electricity rates in the world. So you are a liar. You are arguing that renewables are causing prices to skyrocket. But I have just proven that is not true. The prices are not skyrocketing.

So where are your cost curves on nukes?

France will save 39 billion euros ($44.5 billion) if it refrains from building 15 new nuclear plants by 2060, and bets instead on renewable energy


So what do you have? Just disgusting insults about dogs that eat vomit. Nice guy Willie...

https://www.renew...kes.html


Dec 14, 2018
"...Oklahoma gets 1/3 of it's electricity from the wind..." "greenwashed" by cheap gas(fracking). The only example you have is states with cheap coal or gas.
Please cite a small city/island(>10,000 inhabitants) where it is powered at least 1/3 by wind and solar parasitizing other reliable renewables(hydro/geothermal/biomass) without any drop of fossil fuels.
Not much wind/solar here:
Costa Rica: 78% hydro, 10% geothermal
Iceland: 70% hydro, 30% geothermal
Norway: 99% hydro
Paraguay: 100% hydro
Tajikistan: 100% hydro
Albania: 90% hydro

"...France will save 39 billion euros ($44.5 billion) if it refrains from building 15 new nuclear plants by 2060, and bets instead on renewable energy..."
"Every time you hear a politician say renewables will push down power prices they are lying. Germany spent $108billion for renewables for 3% of their power to increase prices by 300%. It's all bullshit."
https://pbs.twimg...UYZ6.jpg

Dec 14, 2018
Every time you hear a politician say renewables will push down power prices they are lying
No they aren't. Oklahoma gets around 1/3 of it's power from the wind - and has some of the cheapest electricity rates in the world.

Dec 15, 2018
Oklahoma has abundant supply of cheap gas(fracking) which is benefited by "greenwashing" provided by intermittent renewables in a symbiotic relationship.
Oklahoma emissions is ~10x higher than Ontario(carbon-free nuclear).

Please cite a small place (>10,000 inhabitants) powered at least 1/3 by wind/solar parasitizing hydro instead of fossil fuels.
Costa Rica: 78% hydro, 10% geothermal
Iceland: 70% hydro, 30% geothermal
Norway: 99% hydro
Paraguay: 100% hydro
Tajikistan: 100% hydro
Albania: 90% hydro


Dec 15, 2018
Oklahoma has abundant supply of cheap gas
Not relevant to the argument. The U.S. has an abundant supply of cheap gas. Not relevant to the argument. You say that renewables are driving up the price of electricity - and that politicians are lying when arguing that renewables are reducing the cost of electricity. You are a liar - and the Oklahoma example proves that you are a liar. Oklahoma has cheap electricity - due to the low cost of gas, wind, and coal. As the cost of wind continues down - the cost of electricity will fall. Good job we don't have any costly nukes here.

Dec 15, 2018
"...You are a liar..."
You are unable to "cite a small place (>10,000 inhabitants) powered at least 1/3 by wind/solar parasitizing hydro instead of fossil fuels."
"...the Oklahoma example proves that you are a liar..."
As said: the wind/solar cultists have option except to lie like there's no tomorrow and call liar who expose their lies.
"...Oklahoma has cheap electricity - due to the low cost of gas, wind, and coal..."
if it isn't coal then it's gas that keeps lights on; wind as well solar are just facade for fossil fuels.
"Without fossil fuels, society would collapse into Armageddon in about 48 hours. Without "renewable energy" - no one would ever notice the difference."

"...we don't have any ... nukes here..."
Of course you don't, and your emissions is ~10x higher than carbon-free nuclear-powered states/countries, good job in the fight against Climate Change, "Climate Change Deniers" worse than Trump.

Dec 16, 2018
Of course you don't, and your emissions is ~10x higher than carbon-free nuclear-powered states
Well not 10X liar Willie. But we do have very cheap power - because of cheap wind/gas/coal. Our percentage of wind is going up - so over time our emissions will keep coming down. See - nukes are very low carbon - just like wind and solar - but they also are very expensive - unlike wind and solar. We know that - cuz you are too chicken shit to ever answer the request for a cost curve on nukes...

Dec 16, 2018
So look liar Willie - NJ, CT, SC, and IL - all get around 50% of their power from nukes. Guess what their electricity costs are? 16.1 cents, 18.5 cents, 11.5 cents, 12.4 cents. Oklahoma is 9.5 cents. So there is a cost to building those nukes. Count me in on wind and solar please.
https://www.nbcne...r-169050

Dec 16, 2018
"...very cheap power - because of cheap wind/gas/coal..."
Still waiting for those countries/states that run at least 1/3 powered by solar and wind parasitizing hydro instead of fossil fuels.
Admit to yourself, you have only as showcase intermittent renewables acting as 'decorative facades' for cheap coal/oil/gas/fracking, and no examples of unquestionable emission reduction. But of course you won't, because green sociopaths live and die believing collectively in their own lies.

Dec 16, 2018
Still waiting for ...
Keep waiting Willie - I am not playing your straw man games. We are waiting for your cost curve on nukes - that is not a strawman - cuz we keep insisting (with plenty of support ) that nukes are way more expensive than wind and solar. You got nothing.
and no examples of unquestionable emission reduction
Yawn - try Britain as just one example - http://www.chrisb...ets.html

Very cheap power here in Oklahoma - because of cheap wind/coal/gas. And the cost of wind keeps going down.

Dec 17, 2018
"...We are waiting for your cost curve on nukes..."
Wind and solar, with batteries included, 20x costlier, and don't reduce emissions.
"The True Costs of Nuclear and Renewables" - Dec 2018
http://4thgenerat...x284.png
http://4thgenerat...ewables/
"The cost of wind & solar power: batteries included"
http://euanmearns...ncluded/

"...Very cheap power here in Oklahoma - because of cheap wind/coal/gas..."
Green sociopaths have only Oklahoma(a state with abundant cheap gas/fracking) as showcase of ~30% penetration of intermittent renewables('decorative facade' for gas industry). Lamentable! Natural gas(methane: worse than CO2) reduces CO2 emissions and intermittent renewables take the credit providing "greenwashing" for the gas industry in a symbiotic relationship, a disservice in the fight against Climate Change.

21 hours ago
Wind and solar, with batteries included, 20x costlier, and don't reduce emissions
They do reduce emissions - and only an idiot would think that 12.5 cents a Kwh for Hinkley - beats 2 - 3 cents a Kwh for wind and solar. keep dreaming there Willie - and maybe one day you will take a look at that cost curve on nukes.

10 hours ago
"...They do reduce emissions..." i.e. natural gas(methane(CH₄): 70x worse than CO₂) reduces CO₂ emissions and intermittent renewables take the credits.

"...2 - 3 cents a Kwh for wind and solar..." except "batteries not included" neither coal/gas-fired backup plants nor integration costs, and the result is clear: intermittent renewables are causing the electricity prices to skyrocket everywhere except in states that have cheap supply of coal/gas, e.g. Oklahoma.

According to you "...Oklahoma has very low electricity rates (5 cents Kwh on smart hours)..."
And even you prefer to pay 5¢/kWh instead of 2¢/kWh. Because cheap solar and wind are scams, and unlike gskam, you don't believe in your own lies, you have to learn a little more with other green sociopaths how to believe more firmly in your own lies to invest in solar/wind useless placebos subsidized with money from poor families, ask it to gskam.

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